WesWorld

Nordmark would tend to agree with the United Kingdom on this point, now that the situation has been clarified.

I believe that the Chinese Governement would be wise, if they took over the Paracel & Spratly Islands, that they base forces in the vicinity in order to prevent they're use by pirates. China, by the re-birth of her navy is producing the forces to make this possible.

On the subject of San Hainando, China would be wise not to pursue her claim if diplomatic processes fail to produce an agreeable outcome.

Gentlemen....

There is no shortage of opinions as to 'who' should hold 'what' territory's, most of them fall along the lines of the various alliances present and our own personal interests. What is this league if we cannot put these interests aside and act without bias in an effort to fairly determine just who has territorial rights?

In my opinion we need to once again discuss the issue of the Paracels, a barron series of small Islands used by fishermen. It would seem that our efforts to appoint a nation as caretaker of the islands in an effort to combat piracy has failed, and as such demonstrates that a new aproach to this issue must be taken.

Perhaps in light of recent events involving the disruption of Pirate activity's elsewhere it would be best if the Chinese were granted the Paracels in an effort to combat their warlords and the poverty that attracts many Chinese citizens to the lure of piracy.


San Hainado is also an important issue. We cannot comment either way on this issue untill we understand a few important points.

-Just what is the opinion of its inhabitants? Do they reguard themselves as Chinese, Iberian or independant?

-What is San Hainado's value to Iberia and China?

Finally we will not dispute the claim made by the Philippines on the Spratly's for various reasons already mentioned here.

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There is no shortage of opinions as to 'who' should hold 'what' territory's, most of them fall along the lines of the various alliances present and our own personal interests. What is this league if we cannot put these interests aside and act without bias in an effort to fairly determine just who has territorial rights?

Isn't the entire point of diplomatic relations to further your position at the expense of others? All nations want peace, but a peace that suits them.

What has the Paracels mandate done to combat piracy? The Iberian operation removed the pirates from those islands and forced them elsewhere, where exactly I do not know. It is hard to see how any other country could have done more. China especially cannot do as much as a result of their much inferior military and police arms.

San Hainando? I've no idea how it came to be Iberian, maybe a 99year lease like Hong Kong and Macau. That seems likely.

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China does not understand the doubts of India. The island Hainan Dao nevertheless already belonged since the Kaiser era to the Chinese realm. Iberia occupied thus the island illegitimately.

and Italy has claims on Tunisia, Corsica and Nice. Are these going to get anywhere? No, so those claims aren't particularly vocal.

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China does not understand the doubts of India.

Actually, I think you mis-understood what I was saying there. Rephrased, it would be something like, "India thinks it is very likely that China has a valid claim..."

"On the subject of the Paracels, Germany could see fit to vote for a transfer of the League mandate over them from Iberia to China, and then, assuming the piracy problem previously noted there remained suppressed, to granting ownership of the islands to China."

"On the subject of San Hernando/Hainan, Germany must await further information on just how it came to be held by Iberia. If it is a lease, then somewhere there must be a record of this lease, and, Germany assumes, some schedule of payments. If not, then Germany would recommend a plebiscite to determine what the inhabitants of the island think of the situation. Such a plebiscite was used after the Great War to determine the status of Jutland between Germany and Denmark, and worked quite well, though not in Germany's favor."

(The Iberian mandate covers only the Paracels. The Spratly - Kalayaan - Islands were formally annexed by the Philippines back in '24 with little fanfare or protest...)

Guys, I have no information on San Hainando in the info LA left me.

I have spoken to him about it, and he says that it was started as an Iberian colony some time in the 1700's, became isolated (for whatever reason) and came back into the fold in the 1880's before it was incorporated into the Federation in the early 1920's.

Sorry I can't give you more, maybe someone might have a copy of a history of Iberia lurkung somewhere on one of their Hdd's?

I don't recall ever seeing Hainan's background come up prior to this thread. The island's incorporation into the Federation sounds more like it was a colony by conquest rather than a time-limited lease, but that's just my read on it.

I'm going to start a different thread for an out-of-character discussion about Hainan/San Hainando, so we can resolve the history and return to this thread for vociferous in-character arguments!

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Basically its just a case of a bottom tier nation trying to do away with an upper tier nation. Its just not going to happen. When you consider its the Iberian Federation it becomes less likely.

Fellow members lets not argue. When two children fight over a toy, the best solution is simply to remove the toy. Mexico would suggest that Hainan be turned into a protectorate for say 15 years. A neutral country would oversee said protectorate untill Hainan is able to form a democratic goverment. This would remove the temptation of both countries from fighting over said island and would free the population from imperialism.

Mexico, as a neutral Spanish speaking country, volunteeers its services as an overseer of said protectorate if the LoN so decides.

OOC Mexico doesnt really like Iberia, being a former colony, and I feel like getting some colonies of my own. After all the Mexican High Seas Fleet needs something to defend. Course I stand a snowball's chance in Phoenix of getting it. :-D

OOC:

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Originally posted by thesmilingassassin

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Originally posted by Red Admiral
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Basically its just a case of a bottom tier nation trying to do away with an upper tier nation. Its just not going to happen. When you consider its the Iberian Federation it becomes less likely.

Iberian federation or the entire AANM?

IC:

"While we find the Mexican ambassador's preposal noble it would be extremely difficult to find a nuetral party to act as a protecturate. Iberia has a long history with many nations, ourselves included.

As we have already mentioned there are also alliances present that exasterbate the situation. If a FAR nation were to act as a nuetral party the AANM would protest. The U.S. would find itself in a similar situation due to its relations with Iberia as would the various SATSUMA member nations.

While we can see the legitamacy of China's claim to San Hainando its been made clear that Iberia and its allies are content with allowing further anger and resentment to fester rather than dealing with past missdeeds and ingaging in a diolog with the Chinese to adress the issue.

Untill the later option is taken I'm affraid we will get no where with these discussions in reguards to San Hainando.

We suggest that a vote be taken on the issue of who should be granted permanent territorial rights to the Paracel Islands."

> Just Iberia. Its fairly natural to defend your friend's interests.

> There is no legitimacy to the Chinese claim. San Hainando and Macau are parts of the Iberian Federation and as such have considerable autonomy already. If the inhabitants wanted to be dragged into a state of non-independance at the hands of an at best fractured government, wouldn't something have been said? Currently the inhabitants enjoy the protection of Iberia and the economic sucess which goes hand in hand.

"Without the people having been presented with the option, in a forum where they might freely voice their opinion, no one really knows what the people of San Hernando/Hainan want for themselves. We can be reasonably sure that some wish to remain part of Iberia, and that some wish to be part of China, but we have no way to know how strong each group is relative to the other."

>How does Italy deduce that China does not have a legal requirement on Hainan Dao?

Its a claim based on proximity. The inhabitants are Iberian and have been for a long time. Its a similar situation to Italy claiming France, Switzerland, Austria and Yugoslavia just because they are close.

There are two outcomes from this;
- Status quo ante [extremely likely]
- China gets back the island [chance = 0 as LoN has no power and Iberia isn't going to just give them back]