WesWorld

As mentioned in the News thread, a large aircraft carrier is being studied. She's got a large air wing, and is very fast (34 knots); the armour is intended for protection against heavy cruiser gunfire. I'm anticipating that these aircraft carriers will be able to carry fairly large twin-engine attack aircraft when those come along, so the large size and high speed is useful here. The high speed and excellent seakeeping also serves to help her run away from surface engagements with superior enemies. Bear in mind that these are going to be the Nordish capital ships, so their large size and good armour is justified; I'm not sure whether to go for a long, shallow belt or a shorter, deeper belt - 500 x 12 feet covers the vitals.

Future Carrier Study, Nordmark Aircraft carrier laid down 1941

Displacement:
39,342 t light; 40,518 t standard; 44,722 t normal; 48,085 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
922.54 ft / 892.00 ft x 106.00 ft x 29.30 ft (normal load)
281.19 m / 271.88 m x 32.31 m x 8.93 m

Armament:
16 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (8x2 guns), 65.00lbs / 29.48kg shells, 1941 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
24 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (6x4 guns), 1.65lbs / 0.75kg shells, 1941 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
32 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 1941 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,088 lbs / 494 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 450

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 650.00 ft / 198.12 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 1.25" / 32 mm 760.00 ft / 231.65 m 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Main Belt covers 112 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 650.00 ft / 198.12 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.50" / 38 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 4.50" / 114 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 215,004 shp / 160,393 Kw = 34.08 kts
Range 8,000nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,567 tons

Complement:
1,536 - 1,998

Cost:
£14.155 million / $56.620 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 140 tons, 0.3 %
Armour: 9,387 tons, 21.0 %
- Belts: 2,584 tons, 5.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 866 tons, 1.9 %
- Armament: 54 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 5,802 tons, 13.0 %
- Conning Tower: 81 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 5,682 tons, 12.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,772 tons, 30.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,380 tons, 12.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 10,361 tons, 23.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
77,471 lbs / 35,140 Kg = 1,155.7 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 10.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
Metacentric height 8.4 ft / 2.6 m
Roll period: 15.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 45 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.04
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.50

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.565
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.42 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 34.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 27
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 58.00 ft / 17.68 m
- Forecastle (40 %): 45.25 ft / 13.79 m
- Mid (40 %): 45.25 ft / 13.79 m (26.00 ft / 7.92 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Stern: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Average freeboard: 35.74 ft / 10.89 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 224.7 %
Waterplane Area: 69,695 Square feet or 6,475 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 139 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 133 lbs/sq ft or 649 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.39
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Can carry 96 aircraft, 36 Fighters and 60 Torpedo/Dive Bombers + 12 spares (9,516 tons)

80,000 gallons AVGAS = 304 tons
4x18inch extra torpedoes per aircraft = 345 tons
100tons flag facilities
100tons radars/electronics

The Nords are trying to armour what doesn't need much armouring, and not armouring what really needs armouring. Odd.

And why are you using 37mm AA guns?

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
The Nords are trying to armour what doesn't need much armouring, and not armouring what really needs armouring. Odd.

This would be a bad time to present the new BattleOiler with protection against 18" shellfire, then? I'm at a loss as to what needs armouring that hasn't been, though.

Quoted

And why are you using 37mm AA guns?

Nordmark's been using 37mm for ages. There's nothing magical about 40mm calibre, but I am considering something larger in the near future.

Quoted

Originally posted by RLBH

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
The Nords are trying to armour what doesn't need much armouring, and not armouring what really needs armouring. Odd.

This would be a bad time to present the new BattleOiler with protection against 18" shellfire, then? I'm at a loss as to what needs armouring that hasn't been, though.

I don't see a 1.5" TDS being entirely effective against many modern torpedoes, though it's better than nothing; and a 7" belt seems more appropriate for repelling 8-11" fire. I don't think the belt is going to do much good unless you're broadside on to the enemy, in which case, your captain needs to be sacked for trying to fight a cruiser with a carrier!

Quoted

Originally posted by RLBH

Quoted

And why are you using 37mm AA guns?

Nordmark's been using 37mm for ages. There's nothing magical about 40mm calibre, but I am considering something larger in the near future.

Ireland was buying 40mm Bofors from Nordmark just a few years ago. I was just wondering why you went back to the old 37mm when you had the Bofors 40mm. *Shrugs*

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
I don't see a 1.5" TDS being entirely effective against many modern torpedoes, though it's better than nothing; and a 7" belt seems more appropriate for repelling 8-11" fire. I don't think the belt is going to do much good unless you're broadside on to the enemy, in which case, your captain needs to be sacked for trying to fight a cruiser with a carrier!

More or less the designed shellfire, but broadside isn't terribly necessary - I suppose armour along the lines of a cruiser (60 degrees off the enemy track) makes more sense, which would come to about 5.25 inches, maybe down to 5 inches. 1.5" torpedo bulkhead ought to hold back a 750 pound charge, which would probably cut it against modern torpedoes, but isn't much use looking forward. Putting the savings from thinning the belt into the TDS gives us 2.25", which will hold at least a 1,500 pound charge. That sounds like a good tradeoff to me.

Quoted

Ireland was buying 40mm Bofors from Nordmark just a few years ago. I was just wondering why you went back to the old 37mm when you had the Bofors 40mm. *Shrugs*

I figure Bofors has been building 37mm guns based on the 40mm mechanism in the domestic market, which is a bit quirky, but hey. The extra 3mm doesn't really gain enough to be worth changing, not when something in the 50mm class will be brought in around 1941.

She makes an interesting comparison against Andrea Doria. Fairly similar size and airgroup but a different perspective with regards to armouring.

The heavy belt armour might stop cruiser shell from reaching the magazines and machinery directly but they are a pretty small area on a ship of this size. Italy went for a layered armour scheme with 36mm externally over most of the hull to stop splinters and light shells. Internally there's a 60mm belt which should stop most cruiser shells (maybe not 203mm) from reaching the vitals. Along with the closed hangar there's quite a bit of protection to the airgroup. The airgroup is really only semi-expendable - it's best to try and keep those highly trained pilots alive - and so it's fairly well protected.

The large size, seakeeping and powerplant of both ships will mean that they're effectively some of the fastest ships afloat. The large size also helps a lot with operating newer, heavier aircraft. While it might be possible to operate something like the S-2 off a light fleet, it's better to have more space.

Quoted

Originally posted by RLBH

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
I don't see a 1.5" TDS being entirely effective against many modern torpedoes, though it's better than nothing; and a 7" belt seems more appropriate for repelling 8-11" fire. I don't think the belt is going to do much good unless you're broadside on to the enemy, in which case, your captain needs to be sacked for trying to fight a cruiser with a carrier!

More or less the designed shellfire, but broadside isn't terribly necessary - I suppose armour along the lines of a cruiser (60 degrees off the enemy track) makes more sense, which would come to about 5.25 inches, maybe down to 5 inches. 1.5" torpedo bulkhead ought to hold back a 750 pound charge, which would probably cut it against modern torpedoes, but isn't much use looking forward. Putting the savings from thinning the belt into the TDS gives us 2.25", which will hold at least a 1,500 pound charge. That sounds like a good tradeoff to me.

I think that's likely a superior alternative. So far, the only capital ship done in by aircraft (the Peruvian Huascar) was largely sunk by torpedoes; the bombs slowed her and limited her AA response, but the vital hits were all with fish.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
The heavy belt armour might stop cruiser shell from reaching the magazines and machinery directly but they are a pretty small area on a ship of this size. Italy went for a layered armour scheme with 36mm externally over most of the hull to stop splinters and light shells. Internally there's a 60mm belt which should stop most cruiser shells (maybe not 203mm) from reaching the vitals.

Any action involving Nordish ships is likely to take place in the far North or South Atlantic. The greatest threat to these ships is something coming at them in poor visibility and engaging inside gunnery range, so I need to be able to keep out reasonably big shells. End protection would be nice to protect the speed, but adds about 700 tons to the ship and loses about a tenth of a knot. It's doable, though, and probably worthwhile.

Quoted

Along with the closed hangar there's quite a bit of protection to the airgroup. The airgroup is really only semi-expendable - it's best to try and keep those highly trained pilots alive - and so it's fairly well protected.

Agreed on keeping the pilots alive, although I think these are going to have an open hangar to facilitate warming up aircraft below and the launching of large strikes.

Quoted

The large size, seakeeping and powerplant of both ships will mean that they're effectively some of the fastest ships afloat.

Andrea Doria is probably faster strategically, with her deeper bunkers, but the Nordish ship has faster sprint speed and is potentially a more seaworthy vessel, depending on how I tweak her. Start at Vinland, around Sicily and back, last place gets to do exercises in the South China Sea? :p

Quoted

The large size also helps a lot with operating newer, heavier aircraft. While it might be possible to operate something like the S-2 off a light fleet, it's better to have more space.

I've been thinking in terms of TB2Fs than S2Fs, but yes.

The tweaked version has a 1940 laying down date, and is armed with 24 110mm rather than 16 130mm guns to give better AA capability. I've increased the upper belt to 2" thickness and put 2" plating along the ends, in addition to thinning the belt and improving the TDS. I've also shortened her slightly so she'll fit on a Type 4 slip, since I don't have any Type 5 facilities. She'll need a Type 5 dock, but there'll be plenty of time to upgrade one whilst she's on the ways.

Future Carrier Study, Nordmark Aircraft carrier laid down 1940

Displacement:
39,565 t light; 40,738 t standard; 44,995 t normal; 48,401 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
943.71 ft / 885.00 ft x 106.00 ft x 29.40 ft (normal load)
287.64 m / 269.75 m x 32.31 m x 8.96 m

Armament:
24 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns (12x2 guns), 42.00lbs / 19.05kg shells, 1940 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread
24 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (6x4 guns), 1.65lbs / 0.75kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
32 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,056 lbs / 479 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 450

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 392.00 ft / 119.48 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 2.00" / 51 mm 760.00 ft / 231.65 m 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.25" / 57 mm 650.00 ft / 198.12 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.50" / 38 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 4.50" / 114 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 214,897 shp / 160,314 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,663 tons

Complement:
1,544 - 2,008

Cost:
£13.777 million / $55.110 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 127 tons, 0.3 %
Armour: 9,720 tons, 21.6 %
- Belts: 2,486 tons, 5.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,299 tons, 2.9 %
- Armament: 64 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 5,790 tons, 12.9 %
- Conning Tower: 82 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 5,746 tons, 12.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,610 tons, 30.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,430 tons, 12.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 10,361 tons, 23.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
77,465 lbs / 35,137 Kg = 1,907.5 x 4.3 " / 110 mm shells or 11.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
Metacentric height 8.3 ft / 2.5 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 47 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.54

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.571
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.35 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 34.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 29
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 37.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 58.00 ft / 17.68 m
- Forecastle (40 %): 45.25 ft / 13.79 m
- Mid (40 %): 45.25 ft / 13.79 m (26.00 ft / 7.92 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Stern: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Average freeboard: 35.74 ft / 10.89 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 223.1 %
Waterplane Area: 69,548 Square feet or 6,461 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 138 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 132 lbs/sq ft or 643 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.37
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Can carry 96 aircraft, 36 Fighters and 60 Torpedo/Dive Bombers + 12 spares (9,516 tons)

80,000 gallons AVGAS = 304 tons
4x18inch extra torpedoes per aircraft = 345 tons
100tons flag facilities
100tons radars/electronics

Quoted

Any action involving Nordish ships is likely to take place in the far North or South Atlantic. The greatest threat to these ships is something coming at them in poor visibility and engaging inside gunnery range, so I need to be able to keep out reasonably big shells. End protection would be nice to protect the speed, but adds about 700 tons to the ship and loses about a tenth of a knot. It's doable, though, and probably worthwhile.

Italy took a rather different view and simply accepted that the ship will be vulnerable in that situation. It's challenging to get any meaningful amount of armour on board. Better to rely on size and subdivision for protection instead. And try and keep any enemy ships from suddenly appearing within gunnery range - i.e. aerial reconnaissance, radar, escorts etc.

Quoted

I've been thinking in terms of TB2Fs than S2Fs, but yes.

I do quite like the TB2F myself and drew up a few similar designs. Haven't really settled on anything yet though. Next generation strike is a bit up in the air at the moment with a couple of conflicting approaches.



Grumman TB2F mockup

Quoted

1.5" torpedo bulkhead ought to hold back a 750 pound charge, which would probably cut it against modern torpedoes, but isn't much use looking forward. Putting the savings from thinning the belt into the TDS gives us 2.25", which will hold at least a 1,500 pound charge. That sounds like a good tradeoff to me.

The depth of the system is probably more important than the "armour" thickness. With no barbettes on a carrier it should be relatively easy to design a deep enough system. HMS Vanguard was tested to 1500lb with 1.75" of bulkhead in the system and about the same beam so that should be doable.

Hokay. The blisteringly fast cruisers that will run with the aircraft carriers, and act as an AA escort/battleship killer. The inspiration here is the Emeraude, one of the early designs for HTMS Sans Souci. The design philosophy was for similar armour to the aircraft carrier, since she's not expected to get into gunfights with big ships, the AA battery of a battleship, and guns capable of killing a 210mm cruiser happily or of doing serious mischief to a battleship at point-blank range before she is mortally wounded. The torpedoes are large-diameter not for range, but to get a big warhead (no Long Lances here), whilst eight on either side means she'll get a good spread out.

Since it's accepted that any engagement with a battleship will be at very short range and almost certainly end in the spectacular destruction of the cruiser, she's therefore built as inexpensively as possible whilst having the characteristics desired. To keep up with the carrier, she's got three-quarters of the powerplant. There'll only be enough money to design one high-power plant, so it's being designed to be scalable to two, three or four shaft versions. Keeping weight down whilst keeping this powerplant means that we finish up with phenomenal speed, just shy of 35 knots, but seakeeping isn't spectacular. That, and the fact that she's a bit bigger than I'd hoped for, is all that I'm not entirely happy with on this design, but she doesn't look bad - within the context of her intended role.

Large Cruiser 1940, Nordmark Battleship laid down 1940

Displacement:
18,680 t light; 19,406 t standard; 22,357 t normal; 24,717 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
744.87 ft / 720.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 24.88 ft (normal load)
227.04 m / 219.46 m x 25.91 m x 7.58 m

Armament:
8 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (4x2 guns), 485.02lbs / 220.00kg shells, 1940 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns (2x2 guns), 42.00lbs / 19.05kg shells, 1940 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
16 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns (8x2 guns), 42.00lbs / 19.05kg shells, 1940 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
32 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 1.65lbs / 0.75kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
24 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (16 mounts), 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 16 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,779 lbs / 2,168 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
16 - 24.0" / 609.6 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.25" / 133 mm 385.00 ft / 117.35 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 82 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.50" / 114 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 161,250 shp / 120,293 Kw = 34.94 kts
Range 8,640nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,311 tons

Complement:
913 - 1,188

Cost:
£10.217 million / $40.868 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 530 tons, 2.4 %
Armour: 4,515 tons, 20.2 %
- Belts: 1,241 tons, 5.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 812 tons, 3.6 %
- Armour Deck: 2,385 tons, 10.7 %
- Conning Tower: 77 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 4,312 tons, 19.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,149 tons, 40.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,677 tons, 16.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 175 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
34,058 lbs / 15,448 Kg = 80.7 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 3.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.514
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.47 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.98 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 37.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 33.00 ft / 10.06 m
- Forecastle (40 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Mid (55 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Stern: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Average freeboard: 26.67 ft / 8.13 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172.5 %
Waterplane Area: 42,965 Square feet or 3,992 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 127 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 143 lbs/sq ft or 698 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.58
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Designed to use three-quarters a CVF plant.

Misc Weight is:-

75 tons Aircraft
60 tons Electronics
40 tons 16 x 24" torpedoes

And here's the Ocean Escort. I wanted to call these frigates, after the USN practice of using that name for destroyer leaders, but I already have frigates as they'd be understood by most people. Not the Commonwealth - I think I may have encouraged ShinRa in that particular perversion a while ago.

Ahem.

In terms of layout, these are conceptually similar, if not stylistically similar (the Soviets had some hideous ships, even if their design philosophy was quite inspired), to a Skoryy class destroyer with a 130mm mount in B position and the 3" mounts abreast the after funnel. Yes, there are flaws (the 3" mounts will be quite cramped, and the third 130mm mount will hamper visibility as well as making her something of a 'sea plough') but this ship - she'll be a one-off rush job - is a prototype for the new ships in 1941, which will only have two 130mm mounts, a better A/A battery arrangement and may have ahead-throwing A/S weapons if I can justify them in-story. Again, very fast ships, although a bit short-legged; that's one of the problems with destroyer design. Her power plant has actually been designed to weight, so that I can use the same hull, albeit with modified scantlings, for the production class. This one may well come on the market in 1943-1944, depending on the situation with light forces, since she'll be a singleton.

Prototype, Nordmark Ocean Escort laid down 1940

Displacement:
2,739 t light; 2,884 t standard; 3,193 t normal; 3,440 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
483.09 ft / 466.00 ft x 42.50 ft x 13.50 ft (normal load)
147.25 m / 142.04 m x 12.95 m x 4.11 m

Armament:
6 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (3x2 guns), 65.00lbs / 29.48kg shells, 1940 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1940 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.65lbs / 0.75kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 459 lbs / 208 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300
8 - 24.0" / 609.6 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.18" / 30 mm

- Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 66,708 shp / 49,764 Kw = 36.90 kts
Range 2,800nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 556 tons

Complement:
212 - 276

Cost:
£2.232 million / $8.927 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 59 tons, 1.8 %
Armour: 35 tons, 1.1 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 26 tons, 0.8 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 9 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,619 tons, 50.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 926 tons, 29.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 454 tons, 14.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 3.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
886 lbs / 402 Kg = 13.2 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.47
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 10.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 48 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.32
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.13

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.418
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.96 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.72 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.50 ft / 0.46 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.50 ft / 6.25 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 18.75 ft / 5.71 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 182.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 130.3 %
Waterplane Area: 12,800 Square feet or 1,189 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 77 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 38 lbs/sq ft or 185 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.44
- Longitudinal: 1.51
- Overall: 0.50
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

100 tons for radar, sonar, depth charges, throwers

Interesting ships and concepts.

It seems Nordmark is going for speed.

The Large Cruiser is of dubious value for money. Yes its fast and can ward off other Super CAs, CAs, CLs and DDs but I'm not sure a modern battleship would be too worried. Older ones would probably steer clear. The armour is on the iffy side (decks ok) but should prove adeqaute against smaller CLs and DDs. Decent range too. Overall its an expensive cruiser for one task and very vulnerable. I thought my Princess Royals were expensive but they have 12 9.2in guns and have a nuch heavier broadside but at the expense of speed.

The Ocean Escort mirrors recent RN ideas but the RN is looking at a bigger standard DD more along DDL lines and size. Nordmarks has super speed but little range for a so-called Ocean Escort. She'll need topping off at sea or calling into friendly ports, both risk detection and being caught by enemy forces. Refulling at sea will slow the entire taskforce. Excellent weaponry though, perhaps overkill, four 3in is deadly to aircraft with the right fuses etc but against surface threats your probably over-gunned. Also the ship is big for a DD. Getting into CL territory here. I know its a prototype but I can't see the production ships being this big/ expensive.

The problem is that I'm deliberately not building battleships They're actually still relevant, but I want the challenge of putting into practice a complete change in policy. Besides, Nordmark can't afford the large battleships that would be needed to play with the big boys - although I'm toying with a left-wing government coming in and deciding that there's no enemy anyway, so no sense worrying. We have a lot of governments which don't seem concerned by the idea of spending small fortunes on armaments.

Anyway, once you make the decision to go with fast carrier task groups, you need escorts that can keep up, and that's a headache: the sacrifices to get a fast ship are severe. 37 knots isn't nearly fast enough to screen a 34 knot ship - I ought to be looking at 41 knot destroyers, but that just won't work at all.

Nordmark needs to consider the possibility of encountering battleships during the day but in moderate-poor visibility and weather conditions where aircraft operations aren't feasible. That means that there has to be some way of holding them up whilst the carrier gets away. I'm open to alternative ideas, but the torpedo-armed large cruiser is the least bad I've come up with.

The 'Ocean Escort' (actually, I'll probably go with 'Fleet Escort' so I've got the other term for slower DEs) is a bit short-legged; playing with the production design, I can get about 3,400 miles at 20 knots with four 130mm guns. Previous Nordmarchian destroyers have ranges of 5,000 miles or so, but at a lower speed of 15 knots. Getting any more range falls foul of the hard break at 3,000 standard tons in our rules - the fuel doesn't count, but the structure does, and this is a very tight design. This again comes back to the need to screen a 34 knot carrier, and once you've got that speed and a vaguely useful armament you finish up naturally at about 3,000 tons. If you increase the load even slightly, you're pushed over the 3,000 ton mark; getting up to 0.75 hull strength at this speed takes nearly 1,500 tons and you've not gained much other than volume. It's a gain, but...

Quoted

Anyway, once you make the decision to go with fast carrier task groups, you need escorts that can keep up, and that's a headache: the sacrifices to get a fast ship are severe. 37 knots isn't nearly fast enough to screen a 34 knot ship - I ought to be looking at 41 knot destroyers,

Only if you plan on moving strategically at 34kts.

Cut your strategic movement speed back to 15-18-20kts, and your escorts will keep up just fine. When will your carriers go faster?

When launching/recovering aircraft. In this case, it hardly matters if the carriers get a few nm ahead of the heavy escort for the brief time it takes to launch/recover the air group.

When the task group is dashing in to launch a strike. In this case, the heavy escort is already at her station when the task group speeds up.

When the task group is running from pursuit. In this case, the heavy escort is to interpose herself between the carriers and their surface pursuers. That does not require keeping up with the carriers.

After all, the US fast battleships/Alaskas had hardly any speed advantage over the Essex or later carrier classes, and still did the mission.

Well said! My thoughts exactly.

As I recall, during the early part of the Pacific War the USN had absolutely no qualms about screening the fast carriers with a 27-knot SoDak or a North Carolina. As AdmK says, it was cruising speed that really mattered.

Using half the CVF plant, vice three-quarters, gives us a two-shaft ship making a little over 32 knots. Cutting the range back to the same as the carrier (still 8,000 miles at 20 knots, equivalent bunkerage to better than 15,000 miles at 15 knots) in conjunction with the reduced machinery saves 2,500 tons without touching the armament or protection. Much better...

Large Cruiser 1940, Nordmark Battleship laid down 1940

Displacement:
16,147 t light; 16,813 t standard; 19,326 t normal; 21,337 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
724.87 ft / 700.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 23.50 ft (normal load)
220.94 m / 213.36 m x 24.38 m x 7.16 m

Armament:
8 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (4x2 guns), 485.02lbs / 220.00kg shells, 1940 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns (2x2 guns), 42.00lbs / 19.05kg shells, 1940 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
16 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns (8x2 guns), 42.00lbs / 19.05kg shells, 1940 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
32 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 1.65lbs / 0.75kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
24 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (16 mounts), 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 16 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,779 lbs / 2,168 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
16 - 24.0" / 609.6 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.25" / 133 mm 385.00 ft / 117.35 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.50" / 114 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 107,500 shp / 80,195 Kw = 32.15 kts
Range 8,000nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,525 tons

Complement:
819 - 1,065

Cost:
£8.478 million / $33.911 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 530 tons, 2.7 %
Armour: 4,293 tons, 22.2 %
- Belts: 1,229 tons, 6.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 812 tons, 4.2 %
- Armour Deck: 2,182 tons, 11.3 %
- Conning Tower: 70 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,874 tons, 14.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,275 tons, 42.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,179 tons, 16.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 175 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
35,648 lbs / 16,169 Kg = 84.5 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 3.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.37

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.514
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.75 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.47 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 37.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 33.00 ft / 10.06 m
- Forecastle (40 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Mid (55 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Stern: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Average freeboard: 26.67 ft / 8.13 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 170.9 %
Waterplane Area: 39,314 Square feet or 3,652 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 134 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 139 lbs/sq ft or 678 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.66
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Designed to use half a CVF plant.

Misc Weight is:-

75 tons Aircraft
60 tons Electronics
40 tons 16 x 24" torpedoes

I think I like that a bit better.

Interesting choice of the main-battery caliber. Home-developed?

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
I think I like that a bit better.

Interesting choice of the main-battery caliber. Home-developed?

Already in service on the Falun class.

Is that the gun they've got? I don't see it anywhere in the encyclopedia, and I recall when I proposed some designs to Earl, he was leaning towards the 210mm gun. That might be incorrect, though...

It's the gun on the only design that I've got for them, at any rate.