WesWorld

Now that both of you gentlemen have picked a nation I have a few questions to ask. First Ram if you can come up with a fleet list of ships laid down and completed between 1906 and 1920 we can begin to disect the list and come up with a realistic fleet for the SIM.
As for Commodore green are you going to go with the historical Danish fleet? If not you should likely do the same as RAM and we can get the fleets sorted out and move on to the infrastucture. If you are having second thoughts about the nations you picked, now is the time to say so! It will save us some work.
The netherlands WILL be CT signatory while Denmark will not (at least if they have the historical fleet).

Why 1906-1920? I would make that x - 1920. What if he wants to have some older pre-dreads or coastal defense vessels around? Such would not be unlikely for the NL.

Cheers,

HoOmAn

It all depeds what we think would be retained after the CT I suppose. I'm using 1904-1920 as a guideline.

Quoted

The netherlands WILL be CT signatory while Denmark will not (at least if they have the historical fleet).

If I'm not mistaken, Denmark can become a signatory on grounds of part 1, article VI of the Treaty of Cleito.

Quoted

VI. NON-CONTRACTING POWERS WISHING TO BE SIGNATORY POWERS

Any Non-Contracting Power wishing to commit itself to this treaty,
shall be allowed to do so by communicating to the Government of the
Kingdom of Atlantis its intentions and by dispatching, to the
Government of Atlantis, Plenipotentiaries authorised to sign for the
Power the treaty. The nation shall be considered joined to and bound
by the treaty when such plenipotentiaries have placed their signature
on the document original. The Government of Atlantis shall then
communicate the admission of the Signature Party to the other
Contracting Powers. Any Contracting Power thus joined shall be
counted as a Power of the lowest tier, with allowances equal to those
of Greece, or equal to those of India, at the discretion of the
Contracting Power joining.

Does't say anything about what kind of fleet a Non-Contracting Power must have. As long as Denmark wishes to commit itself to this treaty, it can do so (but if it is wise thing to do? Who knows?).

I think it should read: "The Netherlands WILL be an original CT signatory while Denmark will not". But they can sign the treaty later if they want to.

Walter

If I can't have the Philippines as a colony, then I may as well start with the historical fleet as listed in "Jane's", which I have as the following....
5 X Coastal battleships, laid down 1893,'99,1903,'08 & '14.
3 X Cruisers, laid down 1888,'92,'94. Rebuilt 1913,'07,'09.
16 X Torpedo boats, launched 1907 - 1917
10 X Old Torpedo boats, launched 1886 - 1897
17 X Submarines, launched 1911 - 1918
3 X Minelayers, launched circa 1910
4 X Gunboats, launched 1873 - 1890
15 X Patrol boats, launched 1879 - 1895
1 X Torpedo transport? , date unknown
1 X Repair ship, launched 1883. Rebuilt 1905-6
3 X Survey ships, launched 1861
1 X Fishery cruiser(Protection vessel), launched 1906
5 X Coastguard vessels, launched 1877 - 1916
1 X train schooner for boys, launched 1876
1 X Royal yacht, launched 1879
4 x Lighthouse tenders, date unknown, unarmed.

Merchant Marine.......
631,000 tons gross steamers
109,258 tons net sailing ( 783 hulls)

As for dockyards.......
Copenhagen Arsenal
1 slip (size n/a),
1 dock 316.5 ft X 59.5 ft X 20.5 ft,
2 floating docks-
1 = 157.5 X 28.5 X 12.75
2 = 113 X 31 X 11.75


Private yards......

Copenhagen, Burmeister & Wain
Several large slips (sizes n/a)
1 X dry dock 469 X 66 X 23
3 X patent slips (sizes n/a)
1 X floating dock 492 X 77 X 25
(Note: all details are pre-war, this establishment believedto have been greatly enlarged 1915-17)

Copenhagen, Gamle
1 X slip (size n/a)
2 X small patent slip
2 X dry docks-
1 = 232 X 52 X 15.25
2 = 246 X 52 X 15.25
3 X floating docks-
1 = 296 X 50 X 16.5
2 = 130 X 45 X 12
3 = 310 X 55.5 X 16

Elsinor
1 X patent slip
2 X dry docks-
1 = 379 X 57 X 18
2 = 335 X 43 X 14

Aarhus
1 X patent slip (able to take a small torpedo boat)

Plus the following private yards, but no specific details.....
Elsinore Co., Elsinore
Copenhagen Co., copenhagen and Elsinore
Stuhr, Aalborg
Frederikshavn Co., Frederikshavn.

As you can see, most of the fleet are rusting to death, so there will be a rapid and continous building period to update the fleet, as the Danish government do not want to get caught with their pants down again!

And if there was an overseas possession (Philippines) to think of, this building would be almost life or death!!!
*****Story hook, hint hint!******
By the way, i would not mind giving the Philipines their independence in the future, say mid 40's (alternate timeline, of course!)
*****Another story hook, hint hint!******

And I have no problem signing up to the Clieto Treaty!

A modest (and ancient) fleet, if I may say so. But do not worry. You should be happy with the fact that you have 10 more submarines than Japan. :-)

Walter

Quoted

And if there was an overseas possession (Philippines) to think of, this building would be almost life or death!!!
*****Story hook, hint hint!******

You know, with the US in control of the Philippines, I felt that I lacked room to maneuver without triggering a reaction from the US (eventhough it was decided that the US would remain neutral). But if Denmark was in control of the Philippines, I would suddenly have much more space.

Walter

A temptative list would include the following:


6 Battlecruisers, as follows:

2 BCs laid down 1909, entered service 1913-14. 22000 tons standard each one. 11 inch main guns.

2 BCs laid down 1915, entered service 1917-18. 26500 tons standard each one. 11 inch main guns.

2 BCs laid down 1918, both almost completed in late 1922. 30600 tons standard each one. 12 inch main guns.



Given the number and size of this capital ships, I recognize the fact that other ships would've received much less attention because of the fact that most of netherland's resources would've been focused to them. That's why the light cruiser forces are in a quite sorry state as we'll see later.

also that is the main reason they have so light guns. Heavy guns and turrets are known to be some of the most complicated parts to build for a capital ship, so I decided that an hipotetical dutch ship would've gone with lighter guns to avoid increasing costs and slowing the building of the ships too much.



3 coastal defence battleships, as follows:

2x Hertog Hendrik class (1900). 8500 tons standard, 9.45 inch guns (takes in account that one of the original class of three was sunk during the war with India). One of them is held as training ship but with full weapons.

1x CDB. 8700 tons standard (1910), 12 inch guns.


9 light cruisers as follows:

4x CLs laid down 1903. 4500 tons each. 4 inch guns

5x CLs laid down 1913. 5500 tons each. 5.12 inch guns.



19 destroyers as follows:

6xZ1 class launched 1903. 1400 tons each. Little better than torpedo boats.

9xZ10 class launched 1909. 1700 tons each.

4xZ20 class launched 1919. 1900 tons each.

All those ships are modelled in SpringSharp. I'll post their stats in the infrastructure forum when I publish the full netherlands fleet in detail.


Some (about 15) minelayers and minesweepers. One royal yatch, and 8 holland-type obsolete submarines. Still have to model those, tho.


the fleet takes in account losses at the indian ocean in 1916. Also takes in account the sinking of the only two armoured cruisers built by netherlands at port in 1912 when anchored side by side and one of the ship's magazines blew up. As Netherlands was focusing it's resources to the construction of the Battlecruisers, they were never replaced.



BTW, I need some help with the names for my ships, as I have no idea on how did the dutch navy name them historically. Maybe Rooijen, can you help me with that, as I understand you're dutch?. If you have hotmail messenger and want to help me that would be great (and if not, we can always talk via email .

[/QUOTE]

You know, with the US in control of the Philippines, I felt that I lacked room to maneuver without triggering a reaction from the US (eventhough it was decided that the US would remain neutral). But if Denmark was in control of the Philippines, I would suddenly have much more space.

Walter
[/QUOTE]

See Boss, I am only trying to make things more interesting.
(God help me though, I would have Japan for a neighbour! Anyone playing the Moon????)

Commodore:

If you want to do something other than cruise around northern Europe, there are a couple of alternatives that can be explored - though both require some revision to history.

First, the US Virgin Islands (St. Thomas, St. Croix, St. John and a few dozen islets) were Danish possessions until sold to the USA in 1917. Personally, I would not object to that sale never having happened. Other players might feel differently.

The other possibility is a place called Tranquebar (there's a few variations on the spelling). This was a Danish trading post established in 1620 in what is now Tamil Nadu, India. The Danes paid the local ruler tribute in order to maintain a trading post and town. Historically, it was sold to Britain in 1845.

However, in our sim, India evicted Britain from the area long before that would have happened. I'd be willing to accept that Tranquebar still exists as a Danish trading post. We'd have to establish two things:

1) Considering that the Indian empire ejected British, French, Portugeuse, and other interests from the subcontinent, why didn't they do the same to the Danes?

2) Why haven't we heard about Tranquebar in the sim before?

Food for thought...

J

Quoted

Originally posted by The Rock Doctor
Commodore:

First, the US Virgin Islands (St. Thomas, St. Croix, St. John and a few dozen islets) were Danish possessions until sold to the USA in 1917. Personally, I would not object to that sale never having happened. Other players might feel differently.

Good idea, though.

HoOmAn

Well Commodore if Rocky, Rooijin and yourself can come up with an agreement I'm sure those territory's in the pacific can be hammered out. As for the Philipines if you can come up with a convincing story why they would belong to Denmark and not the U.S. and no one dissagrees perhaps we can relent and let you have them. Again this is why I feel a split U.S. would give us a little more freedom in certain area's.
If any player is DEAD SET against the Philipines being controled by Denmark speak up and tell us why!
It may also help to learn Denmark and the Netherlands position and involvement in WW1.

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin

It may also help to learn Denmark and the Netherlands position and involvement in WW1.

regarding netherlands, the only involvement in WW1 was the side-line story of the war with India. Otherwise the country stayed neutral and aside of the conflict, just as it was the case in real life.

(no redrawing of the history from my side in this matter

Quoted

I'd be willing to accept that Tranquebar still exists as a Dutch trading post. We'd have to establish two things:

1) Considering that the Indian empire ejected British, French, Portugeuse, and other interests from the subcontinent, why didn't they do the same to the Danes?

2) Why haven't we heard about Tranquebar in the sim before?

Food for thought...

J

1/ we are there to trade honestly with the local craftspeople.
and to help the local economy"!

2/ we kept a low profile!!!

As for ww1, we got caught with our pants down (fleet Wise), so we stayed out of it, and tried to play the diplomat!

I wouldn't say I'm dead set against Denmark controlling the Philippines, but I'm going to need a lot of convincing (bribes will help, too). The options I mentioned earlier merely require Denmark to hang on to minor colonies they historically possessed; taking and holding the Philippines is another matter entirely.

Commodore: I saw an indication of a Danish colony once existing along the Gold Coast of Africa but didn't look into it. Might be another thing to look at.

Okay, on to the Netherlands...

The fleet looks reasonable; I'm assuming some of it is based outside the Netherlands East Indies, which would make it even better.

I get the impression that historical naval heroes were a popular source of warship names for the Dutch; I think they also named some cruisers for the NEI islands such as Java.

J

Quoted

The options I mentioned earlier merely require Denmark to hang on to minor colonies they historically possessed; taking and holding the Philippines is another matter entirely.

Commodore: I saw an indication of a Danish colony once existing along the Gold Coast of Africa but didn't look into it. Might be another thing to look at.

The Smiling Assassin and i are hammering out a story line that might be accepted for the Philippines....watch this space!

As for Africa.....