WesWorld

DDL 1936 A3, Atlantean destroyer leader laid down 1936

Displacement:
2,563 t light; 2,747 t standard; 3,029 t normal; 3,256 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
436.65 ft / 425.00 ft x 44.00 ft x 14.00 ft (normal load)
133.09 m / 129.54 m x 13.41 m x 4.27 m

Armament:
8 - 5.10" / 130 mm guns (4x2 guns), 65.00lbs / 29.48kg shells, 1936 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1936 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (3x4 guns), 0.25lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1936 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1936 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 539 lbs / 245 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 400
10 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.58" / 40 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
4th: 0.30" / 8 mm - -

- Conning tower: 2.95" / 75 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 50,000 shp / 37,300 Kw = 34.35 kts
Range 5,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 509 tons

Complement:
203 - 265

Cost:
£1.757 million / $7.027 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 69 tons, 2.3 %
Armour: 55 tons, 1.8 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 42 tons, 1.4 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 13 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,327 tons, 43.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,033 tons, 34.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 466 tons, 15.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 2.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,090 lbs / 494 Kg = 16.4 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 13.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.405
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.66 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.90 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.50 ft / 8.08 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.50 ft / 5.03 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.50 ft / 5.03 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.50 ft / 5.03 m
- Stern: 16.50 ft / 5.03 m
- Average freeboard: 17.30 ft / 5.27 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 164.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117.1 %
Waterplane Area: 11,982 Square feet or 1,113 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 87 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 49 lbs/sq ft or 240 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.57
- Longitudinal: 1.65
- Overall: 0.64
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Almost the same as what I have planned, though I designated it as a cruiser (even if it is an oversized destroyer). This is the original design the 5 inch vessel in the "Burijas Request for Proposal" thread here was based on (though I made it slightly smaller to get the standard beneath 3000 tons though I still do not know what the deal is on that displacement issue).


Kureimoa, Japan CL laid down 1936

Displacement:
2,830 t light; 2,998 t standard; 3,469 t normal; 3,846 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
488.51 ft / 472.50 ft x 44.00 ft x 14.60 ft (normal load)
148.90 m / 144.02 m x 13.41 m x 4.45 m

Armament:
8 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (4x2 guns), 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 1935 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 4.00lbs / 1.81kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
12 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (4x3 guns), 0.57lbs / 0.26kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 0.52" / 13.2 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.09lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1930 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 481 lbs / 218 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 350
15 - 24.0" / 609.6 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 52,605 shp / 39,244 Kw = 34.50 kts
Range 7,700nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 848 tons

Complement:
225 - 293

Cost:
£1.920 million / $7.679 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 80 tons, 2.3%
Armour: 62 tons, 1.8%
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0%
- Armament: 62 tons, 1.8%
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0%
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0%
Machinery: 1,415 tons, 40.8%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 943 tons, 27.2%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 639 tons, 18.4%
Miscellaneous weights: 330 tons, 9.5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,054 lbs / 478 Kg = 16.9 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 13.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.74 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.00 ft / 0.30 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20%): 19.25 ft / 5.87 m
- Mid (60%): 19.25 ft / 5.87 m (11.25 ft / 3.43 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15%): 11.25 ft / 3.43 m
- Stern: 11.25 ft / 3.43 m
- Average freeboard: 16.59 ft / 5.06 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 161.1%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 63.8%
Waterplane Area: 13,281 Square feet or 1,234 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 87%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 41 lbs/sq ft or 202 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.01
- Overall: 0.54
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Wes, its shorter than an Akitsuki Class DD but squeezes in an extra bank of TT?

Cheers,

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10
Almost the same as what I have planned, though I designated it as a cruiser (even if it is an oversized destroyer). This is the original design the 5 inch vessel in the "Burijas Request for Proposal" thread here was based on (though I made it slightly smaller to get the standard beneath 3000 tons though I still do not know what the deal is on that displacement issue).


Kureimoa, Japan CL laid down 1936

Displacement:
2,830 t light; 2,998 t standard; 3,469 t normal; 3,846 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
488.51 ft / 472.50 ft x 44.00 ft x 14.60 ft (normal load)
148.90 m / 144.02 m x 13.41 m x 4.45 m

Armament:
8 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (4x2 guns), 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 1935 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 4.00lbs / 1.81kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
12 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (4x3 guns), 0.57lbs / 0.26kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 0.52" / 13.2 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.09lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1930 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 481 lbs / 218 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 350
15 - 24.0" / 609.6 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 52,605 shp / 39,244 Kw = 34.50 kts
Range 7,700nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 848 tons

Complement:
225 - 293

Cost:
£1.920 million / $7.679 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 80 tons, 2.3%
Armour: 62 tons, 1.8%
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0%
- Armament: 62 tons, 1.8%
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0%
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0%
Machinery: 1,415 tons, 40.8%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 943 tons, 27.2%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 639 tons, 18.4%
Miscellaneous weights: 330 tons, 9.5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,054 lbs / 478 Kg = 16.9 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 13.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.74 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.00 ft / 0.30 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20%): 19.25 ft / 5.87 m
- Mid (60%): 19.25 ft / 5.87 m (11.25 ft / 3.43 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15%): 11.25 ft / 3.43 m
- Stern: 11.25 ft / 3.43 m
- Average freeboard: 16.59 ft / 5.06 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 161.1%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 63.8%
Waterplane Area: 13,281 Square feet or 1,234 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 87%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 41 lbs/sq ft or 202 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.01
- Overall: 0.54
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

I used the Italian esploratori ships and as an example. Laid down in 1927 with a Hull Strength of around .5
RA understood the rules as the light displacement also and his ship has being in service for the last five years in his fleet. I guess an honest mistake could repeat itself one or two or three times, specially in the Far East.

Quoted

I used the Italian esploratori ships and as an example. Laid down in 1927 with a Hull Strength of around .5

I think we had different rules back then, or maybe unqualified ones. Even so they're only 57tons over the 3000ton standard.

Quoted

Originally posted by alt_naval
Wes, its shorter than an Akitsuki Class DD but squeezes in an extra bank of TT?

Cheers,

Akitsuki had a lot of space between the fore/aft guns and the for and aft superstructure. She also had her boiler uptakes trunked into one funnel, the trunking took up considerable space as well. She also had a reload bank for her torpedo launcher.

This design is longer than the Fletchers which had five single 5" mounts on the centerline and two banks of torpedos so I don't think her length should be a huge issue.

Quoted

I think we had different rules back then, or maybe unqualified ones. Even so they're only 57tons over the 3000ton standard.

The rules never changed and it should still be light displacement. The only thing in Wesworld that was not determined by light displacement was the Cleito Treaty limitations.

Quoted

This design is longer than the Fletchers which had five single 5" mounts on the centerline and two banks of torpedos so I don't think her length should be a huge issue.

Why not compare the Atlantean DD to something that resembles it more closely when it comes to armament? (like the Porter and Somers class destroyers)

I look at the length of the J class (384.37) as a good guide as to whats possible to add on such a hull. 436 feet as opposed to 384 feet for the addition of a 4th 5.1" turret, 4th 40mm twin mount and slightly heavier 20mm AA armament with nearly a 1,000 ton increase in displacement.

2" shields on open back mounts for 5" guns are going to be quite heavy. 10 tons per mount, and thats excluding the twin mount+guns. Are you sure you don't want them in turrets? This is why I'm looking at an Akatzuki rather than a J or M class.


Cheers,

They will be fully enclosed. I'm refering to the Atlantean "J" class and not the British "J" class.

As I said she's 52 feet longer than the J class and displaces an additional 1,000 tons for an extra 5.1" twin and 40mm twin mount.

I was looking for real world examples and I can't find any comparable examples of very large 2" armoured deck mounts that were not 'turrets' (USN 5" twin on battleships size). 2" sounds like excessive weather proofing.

Cheers,

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10
The rules never changed and it should still be light displacement. The only thing in Wesworld that was not determined by light displacement was the Cleito Treaty limitations.

I recall that when I designed my Windhond class I had to redesign as I was told it was standard tonnage, and I had the same difficulty with my proposed Rood Haes DDLs, so any change predates ~1932-3 here.

Regarding the Italian esploratori ships I was under the impression there was some rule change before I joined ~1928 WW time, and the current breakpoints were put in. I even sent a nice note to another player helpfully observing his 1928 <6,000ton had a hull strength of 0.75 not 0.9 and was told there was a rule change since. Perhaps thats when the standard was added.

As for the 2" faced mounts, there have been conversations on other threads about 6" guns and turrets/mounts. I think the total mount weight should be the guide, and I am guessing the heavily armored twin 5.1" is still lighter than the twin 6" mount on the Omahas, or the single 7.5" on the Hawkins. Once past those you seem to be in turret realms.

Should the guns be simed as turrets with barbettes then? Seems un-nessassary as they should have armoured ammo hoists only.

Pretty much the way I learned to sim such guns. If there is no armored barbette, then it should be simmed as mount+hoist. If more machinery is needed to turn the turret then add more miscellaneous weight.

Thats what I thought, looking at the American 5" turrets they are simply an enclosed turret mounted on a turret ring with an armoured hoist IIRC.

The Aruba class DDL has 80 tons misc weight as opposed to the J's 45 tons, with preaty much the same equipment save additional electronics. Orrigninally I designated the additional tonnage to future growth and radar on at least one unit upon completion but its possible to add 5 tons per mount if its deemed nessassary and still have some weight to spare.