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howard

Unregistered

1

Thursday, July 24th 2008, 4:06pm

Siam request for tender.

Siam [as soon as permission is given to play] is in the market for a twin-engined heavy fighter/attack aircraft.

The following characteristics are desired;

1. radial engines. preferably at least 600 kwatt output.
2. strike radius, at least 700 kilometers.
3. armament; at least 4x12.7 mm MG + 400 kilograms bombs.
4. aerial performance at least 550 k/h: service ceiling at least 7000 meters.

Characteristics are roughly based on the Fokker G-1. Any tenders equal too or superior to these characteristics will be considered. Any technology share with Bangkok Aircraft Manufacturing Corporation will be considered favorably in the fly-off competition.

Flyoff will be held at BAM test aerodrome, Bangkok, tentatively at 3Q36

All of this of course is pending mod approval to play.

H.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "howard" (Jul 24th 2008, 4:39pm)


Kaiser Kirk

Lightbringer and former European Imperialist

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2

Thursday, July 24th 2008, 4:43pm

RE: Siam request for tender.

Quoted

Originally posted by howard
Characteristics are roughly based on the Fokker G-1.


Fokker G.1 varients are in service in Wesworld. They use the dimensions of the OTL G.1s with an all-metal structure, and WW timeline streamlining and engines.

The G.1A and C are both equipped with german inline engines.
The G.1B is in trials with a "Avia" radial, aka the Hercules II, but that is reducing the max speed, but the Avia-Minerva Hercules VI is available shortly and will boost performance back to that seen in the G.1A and C.

howard

Unregistered

3

Thursday, July 24th 2008, 5:05pm

RE: Siam request for tender.

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk

Quoted

Originally posted by howard
Characteristics are roughly based on the Fokker G-1.


Fokker G.1 varients are in service in Wesworld. They use the dimensions of the OTL G.1s with an all-metal structure, and WW timeline streamlining and engines.

The G.1A and C are both equipped with German inline engines.
The G.1B is in trials with a "Avia" radial, aka the Hercules II, but that is reducing the max speed, but the Avia-Minerva Hercules VI is available shortly and will boost performance back to that seen in the G.1A and C.


Thanks for the information.

The Fokker G-1 could be modified further as it was a stout aircraft: roughly I expect that Hercules or Pratt and Whitney radials can improve performance markedly above the specs suggested above.

Chiefly, as the BAM technologist simming this flyoff, I will be looking at service ceiling, endurance [minutes in flight at cruise], aircraft loft ability [bomb-load] low level flight characteristics, climb-rate, wing-loading, and the energy coefficient [kilowatts/kilograms]

I will also be looking at throw mass of the aircraft armament in terms of volley per second as I expect the aircraft to be a major bomber interceptor.

This is at what I will look. The Fokker G-1 is a good start point for the desired characteristics.

H.

4

Friday, July 25th 2008, 3:15am

Siam has in the past bought some German aircraft, and Focke-Wulf has a small subsidiary there. However, given the requirement for radial engines, Germany won't be submitting a design at this time for this competition (Germany is in between radial generations at this point in time: the BMW-132 and Bramo-323 have about topped out, the BMW-139 is a failure, and the BMW-801 is just starting to be delivered for the first time (and will suffer from cooling problems for another year or so when the BMW-801C/D will come out).

howard

Unregistered

5

Friday, July 25th 2008, 4:35am

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
Siam has in the past bought some German aircraft, and Focke-Wulf has a small subsidiary there. However, given the requirement for radial engines, Germany won't be submitting a design at this time for this competition (Germany is in between radial generations at this point in time: the BMW-132 and Bramo-323 have about topped out, the BMW-139 is a failure, and the BMW-801 is just starting to be delivered for the first time (and will suffer from cooling problems for another year or so when the BMW-801C/D will come out).


Too bad. The FW 187 A-0 looks interesting. Equipped with a pair of Hercules II engines, it would be a killer.

Specifications (Fw 187 A-0)

General characteristics

* Crew: 2
* Length: 11.12 m (36 ft 6 in)
* Wingspan: 15.30 m (50 ft 2 S in)
* Height: 3.85 m (12 ft 7 T in)
* Wing area: 30.40 m² (327.22 ft²)
* Empty weight: 3,700 kg (8,157 lb)
* Loaded weight: 5,000 kg (11,023 lb)
* Powerplant: 2× Junkers Jumo 210Ga 12-cylinder inline piston, 544 kW (730 hp) each

Performance

* Maximum speed: 529 km/h at 4,200 m (329 mph at 13,780 ft)
* Service ceiling 10,000 m (32,810 ft)
* Rate of climb: 1,050 m/min (3,445 ft/min)
* Wing loading: 164.14 kg/m² (33.62 lb/ft²)

Armament

* 4 × MG 17 7.92 mm machine guns in fuselage sides
* 2 × MG FF 20 mm cannon in lower fuselage

H.

6

Friday, July 25th 2008, 10:53am

Italy doesn't currently have anything matching the specs apart from the Breda Ba.67 which only has a single engine. Though this does allow for a smaller aircraft. It can't really be described as a fighter though.

Another couple of years and there'll be something suitable as a SM.79 successor.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Red Admiral" (Jul 25th 2008, 10:54am)


7

Friday, July 25th 2008, 11:52am

Several versions of the Fw-187A are in service around the world (Germany, the Netherlands, the Phillipines, Mexico, Iberia, China has also recently expressed some interest), but none have been fitted with radial engines. The German versions are fitted with DB-601s, while others have been fitted with Jumo-211s and the Mexican planes are fitted with Curtiss Conquerors.

howard

Unregistered

8

Friday, July 25th 2008, 2:46pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
Several versions of the Fw-187A are in service around the world (Germany, the Netherlands, the Phillipines, Mexico, Iberia, China has also recently expressed some interest), but none have been fitted with radial engines. The German versions are fitted with DB-601s, while others have been fitted with Jumo-211s and the Mexican planes are fitted with Curtiss Conquerors.


The FW 187 looks to be in the size range of the P&W R1535 Wasp Junior or the Hornet. Either one could possibly be squeezed into the FW 187 though the Fokker G-1 is better suited.

Guess I'd better contact Germany and Holland to discuss.

H.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "howard" (Jul 25th 2008, 2:46pm)


Kaiser Kirk

Lightbringer and former European Imperialist

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9

Friday, July 25th 2008, 6:06pm

The development arc for the G.1B has included several iterations.

Starting with the G.1A, the booms need to be expanded to hold a radial engine properly, and the radial has a great impact on unstreamlined cross section. The +3 year tech range meant the 1,000hp/1,265lb SB-G Twin Wasp and similar engines like the Pegasus XVIII were what was originally available. These caused a substantial performance hit in contrast to the inline G.1A, as can be seen in the G.1x below.

As a result, the G.1B was built first for the Pegasus XVIII, then for the Hercules. However the greater weight of the Hercules forced a substantial rework of the structure, delaying the variant (also, switching from +5 to +3 years for engines had an effect on the timeline). The Avia Hercules VI in developement is expected to have better p/w ratios and boost plane performance.

experimental Fokker G.1x
A G.1A fitted with G.1B booms and 1937 SB-G Twin Wasp, 31.63L radial engines.

1934 monoplane twin-boom jachtkruiser
Rough Field
Crew : 2
Powerplant : 2 x 1000hp SB-G Twin Wasp, 31.63L
Armament : forward 4x7.92mm & 2x 23mm Madsen, rear twin GAST 7.92mm MG in powered turret. Internal 440kg payload, radio.
Armor : 10mm disk
Payload : 889 lbs
Range : 756nm at 170kts
Rate of climb : 1,807 fpm loaded, 1,997 fpm sans bombs
Loaded Stall speed : 76kts
Ceiling : 36,000 ft
Max speed : 282kts (324 mph) loaded, 327mph sans bombs
Corner speed : 292kts, 20.3 deg/ sec
Weight (max) : 13,900 lbs
Cost : $62,000
Wing Span: 54 ft Length: 36 ft. Wing Area: 384 ft2
Wingloading : 36lbs/ft2 (33 unloaded)


Fokker G-1B prototype
1936 monoplane twin-boom jachtkruiser
Rough Field
Crew : 2
Powerplant : 2 x 1365hp Avia Hercules II
Armament : forward 8x7.92mm & 1x 7.92mm rear, radio.
Armor : 10mm disk
Payload : 2,200lbs
Range : 756nm at 180kts
Rate of climb : 2,254 fpm loaded, 2,798 fpm sans bombs
Loaded Stall speed : 81kts
Ceiling : 39,000 ft
Max speed : 308kts (354 mph) loaded, 359mph sans bombs
Corner speed : 312kts, 22.6 deg/ sec
Weight (max) : 15,610 lbs
Weight (light) : 11,684 lbs
Cost : $65,000
Wing Span: 54 ft Length: 36 ft. Wing Area: 384 ft2
Wingloading : 40 lbs/ ft2 (35 unloaded)

howard

Unregistered

10

Saturday, July 26th 2008, 2:40am

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
The development arc for the G.1B has included several iterations.

Starting with the G.1A, the booms need to be expanded to hold a radial engine properly, and the radial has a great impact on unstreamlined cross section. The +3 year tech range meant the 1,000hp/1,265lb SB-G Twin Wasp and similar engines like the Pegasus XVIII were what was originally available. These caused a substantial performance hit in contrast to the inline G.1A, as can be seen in the G.1x below.

As a result, the G.1B was built first for the Pegasus XVIII, then for the Hercules. However the greater weight of the Hercules forced a substantial rework of the structure, delaying the variant (also, switching from +5 to +3 years for engines had an effect on the timeline). The Avia Hercules VI in developement is expected to have better p/w ratios and boost plane performance.

experimental Fokker G.1x
A G.1A fitted with G.1B booms and 1937 SB-G Twin Wasp, 31.63L radial engines.

1934 monoplane twin-boom jachtkruiser
Rough Field
Crew : 2
Powerplant : 2 x 1000hp SB-G Twin Wasp, 31.63L
Armament : forward 4x7.92mm & 2x 23mm Madsen, rear twin GAST 7.92mm MG in powered turret. Internal 440kg payload, radio.
Armor : 10mm disk
Payload : 889 lbs
Range : 756nm at 170kts
Rate of climb : 1,807 fpm loaded, 1,997 fpm sans bombs
Loaded Stall speed : 76kts
Ceiling : 36,000 ft
Max speed : 282kts (324 mph) loaded, 327mph sans bombs
Corner speed : 292kts, 20.3 deg/ sec
Weight (max) : 13,900 lbs
Cost : $62,000
Wing Span: 54 ft Length: 36 ft. Wing Area: 384 ft2
Wingloading : 36lbs/ft2 (33 unloaded)


Fokker G-1B prototype
1936 monoplane twin-boom jachtkruiser
Rough Field
Crew : 2
Powerplant : 2 x 1365hp Avia Hercules II
Armament : forward 8x7.92mm & 1x 7.92mm rear, radio.
Armor : 10mm disk
Payload : 2,200lbs
Range : 756nm at 180kts
Rate of climb : 2,254 fpm loaded, 2,798 fpm sans bombs
Loaded Stall speed : 81kts
Ceiling : 39,000 ft
Max speed : 308kts (354 mph) loaded, 359mph sans bombs
Corner speed : 312kts, 22.6 deg/ sec
Weight (max) : 15,610 lbs
Weight (light) : 11,684 lbs
Cost : $65,000
Wing Span: 54 ft Length: 36 ft. Wing Area: 384 ft2
Wingloading : 40 lbs/ ft2 (35 unloaded)


Siam sends a technical mission to the Netherlands to investigate both aircraft as possible candidates for a fighter/attack aircraft.

H.

11

Sunday, July 27th 2008, 6:33am

Australia does have a plane in the P-38 performance range. It is a twin engine (front and back), floatborne fighter, powered by Merlins. It is not radial powered, but should meet the requirements eaitehr way. I'll have the specs up by tommorow.

12

Sunday, July 27th 2008, 10:42pm

Australian Aviation AA-8 Hypocampus (Seahorse) aka Lake Eyre Monster



Power: 2x Rolls Royce Merlins 1100hp

Length: 35 ft
Wingspan: 40 ft
Height: 13 ft
Wing area: 280 ft²

Empty, 8500 lb
Max Take Off, 15000 lb

Max Speed, 405mph
Range, 800miles

Armament: Four 7.62/0.3in machine guns, two 20mm cannons, 1,500lbs of bombs & rockets.

Note: The fighter version does not have a retractable float. Instead it has twin fixed floats. A wheeled RG version is under work.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Desertfox" (Jul 27th 2008, 10:43pm)


13

Sunday, July 27th 2008, 11:06pm

I can't help but feel that the performance is wildly optimistic if the retractable float isn't used. The weight seems rather low for a twin as well.

14

Monday, July 28th 2008, 2:46am

It should be possible. The performance lost by using non retractable floats is regained by the inline engines. The plane is also smaller and lighter than the P-38, with less wing area and no turbosuperchargers. So overall, performance should be pretty similar to the P-38's at low altitudes, untill the Merlins get the two stage superchargers.

I probably underestimated the weight, but the plane will be lighter than the P-38.

EDIT: Weight is pretty similar to the FW-187. So I'll leave the plane weights as is.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Desertfox" (Jul 28th 2008, 2:49am)


Kaiser Kirk

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15

Monday, July 28th 2008, 4:36am

Well it looks a fair bit like a plane I've posted a couple times, the Fokker D.XXIII. OTL it was flying in 1940 but the invasion occurred. The WW version was originally intended for 1936, but changing from +5 to +3 moved it to 1938.



I've planebuildered that in numerous ways. I can view with openoffice at home, tinker on work's excel.

One thing to remember about the inline was the airflow to the rear propeller was not as efficient. From somewhere I got an 80% effectiveness number for the aft propeller. So, Looking at a D.XXIII version with 1,080 2x HS-12Y-51, taking 80% power for the rear due to bad airflow, a max weight of 7,650lbs, speed is 420mph.

I can't imagine a floatplane version weighing twice as much can come close. Esp. when superchargers are about 5,000m in effectiveness.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Kaiser Kirk" (Jul 28th 2008, 4:37am)


16

Monday, July 28th 2008, 7:20pm

Quoted

It should be possible.


I still think its optimistic. The P-38 is bigger with more wing area but it doesn't have the extra drag of the floats. Speed is 370mph at 15000ft where the engines give 1425hp. Merlin IIs give 1030hp at 16000ft. The Oz design should be considerably slower given the lower power and extra drag of the floats. The Fw 187 is lighter but with similar power levels with the DB engines but is around 390mph (probably around 350mph without evap cooling). The inline double engine can't compensate for the extra float drag that much.

Quoted

One thing to remember about the inline was the airflow to the rear propeller was not as efficient. From somewhere I got an 80% effectiveness number for the aft propeller. So, Looking at a D.XXIII version with 1,080 2x HS-12Y-51, taking 80% power for the rear due to bad airflow, a max weight of 7,650lbs, speed is 420mph.


On the other hand, drag is reduced because with the aft propeller the air is accelerated after its passed over the fuselage. With drag proportional to V^2, a tractor prop produces more drag because the air is flowing faster over the fuselage.

17

Monday, July 28th 2008, 8:10pm

How did the float Spitfire compared to the regular one? I can't seem to find enough info on that.

18

Monday, July 28th 2008, 8:26pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
How did the float Spitfire compared to the regular one? I can't seem to find enough info on that.


It was about 50mph slower than the conventional one. The Merlin 45 used had 50% greater power than the II.

19

Tuesday, July 29th 2008, 5:32pm

Hah, I just found something I'd worked up for Swampy: the Siamese version of the Fw-187. If desired, Focke-Wulf could put this aircraft into production in the plant that it has already in Siam. Alternatively, a tropicalized version of the Fw-187I in production for Iberia could be built, which has a higher max takeoff weight (13,000 pounds) and is fitted for 2 400 kg bomb racks under the wings.

Aircraft Type or Name:

Focke-Wulf FW-187 S-1

General Type:
Airplane = 1
Airship = 2
Orbiter = 3
1

Year of First Flight: 1938

Description

Carrier or Rough Field
Monoplane
Conventional Fuselage

The Siamese version of the FW-187 'Falke'. Equipped with 4 20mm MG-FFs and 2 7.92mm MG-17s in the nose. Service ceiling limited by the unpressurized nature of the engines.



Characteristics:

Weight (maximum) 11,100 lbs
Weight (empty) 9,497 lbs

Length 36.5 ft
Wingspan 50 ft
Wing Area 327 sq ft
Sweep 3 degrees

Engines 2
Junkers Jumo-211
Piston

1,095 hp
at 12,000 ft


Crew 1


Typical cost $0.059 million in 1939
Total number procured 2000


Performance:

Top Speed 334 kts = 384 mph
at 12,000 ft
Mach N/A

Operational Ceiling 27,000 ft

Range 800 nm = 921 miles
with 37 lbs payload
40 lbs released at halfway point

Climb 3,079 fpm

Cruise 240 kts = 276 mph
at 20,000 ft

Corner Speed 239 KIAS =
286 kts at 12,000 ft
Mach N/A
Turning Rate 25.2 deg/sec
Radius 2,205 ft



Internal Data:

Intake / Fan Diameter 9 ft

Bypass Ratio 87

Engine Weight 1320 lbs
Overall Efficiency 22.5 percent

Structural Factor 1.00

Number of Wings 1
Number of Fuselages 1

Limiting Airspeed 450 kts
Wing Ultimate g Load 10.00 g
Wing Taper 0.5
Wing Thickness at Root 1.2 ft

Tail / Canard Factor 0.4

Number of Nacelles 2
Length 9 ft
Diameter 3.25 ft
Fullness 0.5

Fuselage Diameter 3.25 ft
Fuselage Fullness 0.35

Pressurized Volume 0 percent
Cargo Decks 0

Cleanness 80 percent
Unstreamlined section 2.8 sq ft

User equipment 1,600 lbs

howard

Unregistered

20

Tuesday, July 29th 2008, 6:21pm

PM sent.

Siam sends representatives to Focke Wulfe to discuss.

H.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "howard" (Jul 29th 2008, 6:22pm)