WesWorld

Mexico needs an oceanic destroyer for use in the Pacific. With nothing other than refits planned after 1942, Mexico is looking to build a few of these. They are based on the Japanese destroyers of WWII.


Lince, Mexico Destroyer laid down 1943

Displacement:
1,302 t light; 1,379 t standard; 1,559 t normal; 1,702 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
320.00 ft / 320.00 ft x 31.00 ft x 14.10 ft (normal load)
97.54 m / 97.54 m x 9.45 m x 4.30 m

Armament:
6 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (3x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1943 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft
8 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 3.17lbs / 1.44kg shells, 1943 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 400 lbs / 182 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
10 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 31,757 shp / 23,690 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 323 tons

Complement:
123 - 161

Cost:
£1.180 million / $4.720 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 50 tons, 3.2 %
Armour: 18 tons, 1.2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 15 tons, 1.0 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 3 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 662 tons, 42.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 502 tons, 32.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 256 tons, 16.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 70 tons, 4.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
438 lbs / 198 Kg = 7.0 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 13.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.93
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.390
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.32 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.67 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (45 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m (12.00 ft / 3.66 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Stern: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 14.49 ft / 4.42 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 167.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 41.5 %
Waterplane Area: 6,303 Square feet or 586 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 73 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 36 lbs/sq ft or 178 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.49
- Longitudinal: 2.80
- Overall: 0.58
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor

Just one quick note: cross sectional strength needs to be above 0.50.

Well the market is currently lacking in second-hand long-range oceanic destroyers... And I have to spend all that tonnage on something

Yeah, still fiddling with it, dumping 10t of misc weight fixes that problem.

Bah, Brockpine beat me to the comment. Though he got it wrong, it doesn't have to exceed, it can be just 0.5

b) Relative cross-sectional hull strength of light fast combattants of 0-3,000 tons standard should not drop below 0.5

The IJN Hatuharu and Sigure classes appears the closest at 1368 tons standard, 5x5" (2x2 +1), and 2 sets of Torps.

I'd look for a historic precedent for a rapier slim twin 5" DD with a 9.45m beam.

Even the Sigure class was 31.75feet. Since she ran 1368 standard on a draft of 9.5 feet (67% of yours) and similar length, her BC- and thus beam abreast the mounts- must have been significantly higher than yours.

While the Hatuharu had 2xTorp3, and the Sigure had 2xTorp4, you're squeezing 2xTorp5 on a narrower beam- both absolute and by BC.

Generally I'm wary of using IJN vessels for precedents, too many had to be brought back in for work for my tastes.

Otherwise- you have no superimposed 5", which is up to you, but seems odd for a DD in this era.

The deck height difference fore/aft of the midbreak is 5', which requires short sailors.

When I think of 'Pacific' I think of sailing long distances out of the sight of land and big waves. Range is enough for two weeks, and cramped below decks and extremely poor space above decks should take a toll on the crew.
Edit : I'll point out that I know the reality of DDs is you generally shrug and accept it, I generally do for the "cramped", but keep the above decks higher rated.

I knew something was wrong. Weren't the Japanese torpedoes 24" though? Anything over 5k@15kts and it starts turning the ship into a tanker.


Lince, Mexico Destroyer laid down 1943

Displacement:
1,300 t light; 1,379 t standard; 1,557 t normal; 1,700 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
350.00 ft / 350.00 ft x 33.00 ft x 12.10 ft (normal load)
106.68 m / 106.68 m x 10.06 m x 3.69 m

Armament:
6 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (3x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1943 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
8 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 3.17lbs / 1.44kg shells, 1943 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 400 lbs / 182 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 210
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 30,188 shp / 22,520 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 320 tons

Complement:
123 - 161

Cost:
£1.169 million / $4.675 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 50 tons, 3.2 %
Armour: 18 tons, 1.2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 15 tons, 1.0 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 3 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 650 tons, 41.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 532 tons, 34.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 257 tons, 16.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 3.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
519 lbs / 235 Kg = 8.3 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 11.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.71
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.390
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.61 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.57 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (40 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m (12.00 ft / 3.66 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Stern: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 14.32 ft / 4.36 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 164.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 80.4 %
Waterplane Area: 7,339 Square feet or 682 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 77 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 37 lbs/sq ft or 181 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.94
- Overall: 0.57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
Anything over 5k@15kts and it starts turning the ship into a tanker.

long ago I wondered what the maximum fuel allowance was, so I simmed several empty ships with known long ranges- mainly USN and then looked at the
"Fuel, ammunition & stores: " line. As I recall, all came out under 20% with the exception of subs and the Graf Spee. However Subs and the Graf Spee were diesels, which as I recall weigh ~50% more for 25% better fuel consumption.

I may wander back and look at the ship later, guessing I'm still going to whine about beam & BC combo as your draft is still 33-50% deeper on the same displacement, meaning the beam abreast the mounts is slight.

The Asasio were 356x33.5x9 feet and 1500t standard, so despite being the same LxB, and having less draft, they displaced more- indicating a higher BC.

As for torps, the two classes I referenced were early twin 5" in the mid1930s and the torps are listed as 21".

Also, generally Misc weights are going up, by 1943, they should be aware that eventually they will want lots of electronics within the lifespan of the ship.

Bah, wound up doing this as a way of procrastinating from what I should be doing.

Should I point out you have really short sailors again ?
8p

Quoted

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 30,188 shp / 22,520 Kw = 33.00 kts

Four shafts on a destroyer? That's unconventional.

Been a while since I've done a SS2 design from scratch so trying to get my SS2 legs back. Better?


Lince, Mexico Destroyer laid down 1943

Displacement:
1,301 t light; 1,378 t standard; 1,556 t normal; 1,698 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
370.00 ft / 370.00 ft x 34.00 ft x 11.10 ft (normal load)
112.78 m / 112.78 m x 10.36 m x 3.38 m

Armament:
6 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (3x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1943 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
8 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 3.17lbs / 1.44kg shells, 1943 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 400 lbs / 182 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
10 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 29,354 shp / 21,898 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 320 tons

Complement:
123 - 161

Cost:
£1.155 million / $4.619 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 50 tons, 3.2 %
Armour: 18 tons, 1.2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 15 tons, 1.0 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 3 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 635 tons, 40.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 518 tons, 33.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 255 tons, 16.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 5.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
465 lbs / 211 Kg = 7.4 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 13.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.390
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.88 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.13 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (28 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m (12.00 ft / 3.66 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Stern: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 13.85 ft / 4.22 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 162.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 67.2 %
Waterplane Area: 7,993 Square feet or 743 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 77 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 36 lbs/sq ft or 175 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 0.56
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Quoted

Been a while since I've done a SS2 design from scratch so trying to get my SS2 legs back.

That's what you get for buying so many ships from other countries instead of building your own.

You've fixed the misc weight and deck spaces issues.

The beam has crept into a more reasonable range, though I still have misgivings, they are more nebulous.

I've already made my comments on the torps and forecastle desk height.

So..thanks for listening. Hope my comments came across as constructive and making sense.

Thanks, for deck heights well these are 1930's Mexican sailors so not very tall... As for TT, the US four stackers had two triples side by side on a lesser beam.