WesWorld

I would like to propose that the refit rules be modified so that removal of equipment without a corresponding use of said weight savings on other stuff be considered "free of charge". However, once removed, restoring said equipment to the ship would require the corresponding level of refit/rebuild.

I'd be wary of the blanket "Anything pulled off is free" amendment. There's a lot of things you can pull off a ship that shouldn't take huge invesements and more than a day alongside, but there are things that still require some doing; Pulling out anything in a turret, for example. Removing an engine. These things are weighty enough to affect how the ship trims, and would need compensation. Or holes in the deck, things of that nature.

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Originally posted by Desertfox
I would like to propose that the refit rules be modified so that removal of equipment without a corresponding use of said weight savings on other stuff be considered "free of charge". However, once removed, restoring said equipment to the ship would require the corresponding level of refit/rebuild.

Our current refit rules are presently couched in terms of "change", "alteration", "replacing" and such. The current rules do not specifically address "weight savings". I think that before we can seriously discuss a comprehensive change to the refit rules, we need to have a more specific proposal matched in language to the present rules.

Why would someone would remove a turret without adding anything to the ship? That scenario seems unlikely. At the very least you are going to be covering up the hole where the turret used to be somehow, and depending on how draught is measured in Wesworld you might reduce it to have the ship ride higher in the water afterwards so you can reach higher speeds and use more harbors.

Smaller guns should be free to remove though, since there are more reasons why they might be removed. Taking out the casemate guns of a ship is something that is not that complex, apart from covering up the gunports.

On one hand, DF's right, but on the other hand, it should not be completely free. It would still cost money to do it. Is it an idea to stick with the current rules and only apply it to the weight being removed or do you reckon that that is going to make it too cheap?

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Originally posted by Rooijen10
On one hand, DF's right, but on the other hand, it should not be completely free. It would still cost money to do it. Is it an idea to stick with the current rules and only apply it to the weight being removed or do you reckon that that is going to make it too cheap?

If there was a proposal that read something like "Partial removal of engine plant" at a cost of say 10%, I could support it; a blanket "it should be free" I cannot support.

There are a number of situations we have encountered in the refit rules that could stand an examination, and it we are going to tinker with them, we should tackle them all - not bits and pieces at a time. Even then I am not certain that attempting to 'fix' the refit rules is worth the grief to do so.

Perhaps "Partial removal of engine plant" could become a Major Refit. That'd put it in the same price range as "Refurbishment of internal fittings", so the two parts of that process could go hand in hand.

Can we at least have removal of armament on deck mounts be free? I mean removing a deck mounted say 5" gun should only require a couple hours of work dockside, a big wrench, and a small crane...

I'd say it depends on the size of a ship, and what it's status is; We've already approved yoinking guns from mothballed ships, pretty much.

Yoinking a 5" gun from a cruiser shouldn't be a huge deal, but yoinking it from a small destroyer or escort would probably have more of an effect on stability and whatnot.

*looks at ship in question*

That would be 9 tons or about 0.9% of normal displacement... I don't think it would be that big of an effect.

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Originally posted by Desertfox
*looks at ship in question*

That would be 9 tons or about 0.9% of normal displacement... I don't think it would be that big of an effect.

When looking at a potential rules change, the proposed change needs to take into account not one particular ship in question but all possible cases. Suggest the wording of a rule change that is framed like our other refit rules and addresses all possible cases and then people can consider the change on its merits.

I'm just not certain about this sort of idea. While I agree that the cost to remove a gun as proposed here is unrealistically high, there's other aspects of the refit rules which are similarly unrealistically-priced. If we address this one by making it free, then there are a whole host of other issues with the refit rules that we probably ought to address at the same time. Is that actually what people want?

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Originally posted by Brockpaine
I'm just not certain about this sort of idea. While I agree that the cost to remove a gun as proposed here is unrealistically high, there's other aspects of the refit rules which are similarly unrealistically-priced. If we address this one by making it free, then there are a whole host of other issues with the refit rules that we probably ought to address at the same time. Is that actually what people want?

While there are changes in the refit rules I'd like to see, as well as changes in the other rules by which we play, I frankly do not see a consensus being formed to address all the potential issues. This is something that might be addressed at game reset (if we in fact reset) but right now too much water has passed through the bilges for major overhauls without adversely impacting someone who cannot benefit by the rules change.