WesWorld

Following the beginning of production of the EMB-41 (OTL P-47C) in 1941, EMBRAER engineers were finally able to prefect modifications to the design that had been advocated during testing of the EMB-41. The "razorback" cockpit was abandoned in favor of a bubble design. Several other minor changes were incoperated into the design. Overall the Tornado II was generaly regarded as an improvement over the Tornado and was well liked by the pilots of the FAB.


[size=1]OTL P-47D, stats from Wikipedia[/size]

General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 36 ft 1 in (11.00 m)
Wingspan: 40 ft 9 in (12.42 m)
Height: 14 ft 8 in (4.47 m)
Wing area: 300 ft² (27.87 m²)
Empty weight: 10,000 lb (4,536 kg)
Loaded weight: 17,500 lb (7,938 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 17,500 lb (7,938 kg)
Powerplant: 1 × Pratt & Whitney R-2800-59 twin-row radial engine, 2,535 hp (1,890 kW)

Performance
Maximum speed: 433 mph at 30,000 ft (697 km/h at 9,145 m)
Range: 800 mi combat, 1,800 mi ferry (1,290 km / 2,900 km)
Service ceiling: 43,000 ft (13,100 m)
Rate of climb: 3,120 ft/min (15.9 m/s)
Wing loading: 58.3 lb/ft² (284.8 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.14 hp/lb (238 W/kg)

Armament
8 × .50 in (12.7 mm) M2 Browning machine guns (3400 rounds)
Up to 2,500 lb (1,134 kg) of bombs

Is this an acceptable fighter for EMBRAER to produce beginning in 1942?

Quoted

Is this an acceptable fighter for EMBRAER to produce beginning in 1942?

In my own mind, a lot would depend on how much help EMBRAER might have received from the American manufacturer (Republic I guess).

As I understand it, the P-47C was licensed to Brazil. With technical assistance, I could see EMBRAER paralleling Republic's efforts towards the P-47D. Without help, I don't know whether Brazil would have developed the indigenous technical skills at this point.

There is no Republic in the US, Seversky ended up in Brazil for a while now.

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
There is no Republic in the US, Seversky ended up in Brazil for a while now.

We had this debate recently, iirc. Republic exists, and Seversky eventually went to the US from Brazil. Both get to produce Thuds.

Back when I was running Brazil and Canis was running the US, it was discovered that the US would have had no modern fighters due to all of them being......pilfered at one time or another. I gave up sole rights to the P-47 and offered instead a joint project where the US brought to the table its design and manufactoring capabilities, and Brazil brought its recent combat experience in modern war. The P-47 is the result, Republic and Embraer are both building the plane, both have the right to modify it as they wish, and both nations have to sign off on any foreign purchases (in other words, Brazil has to agree before the US sells them to SAE).

Quoted

Originally posted by TheCanadian
Back when I was running Brazil and Canis was running the US, it was discovered that the US would have had no modern fighters due to all of them being......pilfered at one time or another. I gave up sole rights to the P-47 and offered instead a joint project where the US brought to the table its design and manufactoring capabilities, and Brazil brought its recent combat experience in modern war. The P-47 is the result, Republic and Embraer are both building the plane, both have the right to modify it as they wish, and both nations have to sign off on any foreign purchases (in other words, Brazil has to agree before the US sells them to SAE).

Well, if that is the backstory, I would have to agree that the appearance of the Tornado II in 1942 is certainly possible.

Quoted

Originally posted by snip
Is this an acceptable fighter for EMBRAER to produce beginning in 1942?

If I dare ask few questions:

If the EMB-41 started production, when did it enter service?

How long did it take to gain lessons learnt from the razorback version?

How long for development and testing of the new version?

Are we talking entry into production or entry into service in 1942 for the EMB-42?

When in 1942 (early, mid, late)?

Your timeline seems a bit cramped to be realistic but I may be wrong.

Without being able to locate a good set of stats for the P-47C, which is the EMB-41, I cannot say how much better performance wise the EMB-42 is then the -41. I do not intend for this to be a leap and bound above the -41 in terms of performance, I mainly want the bubble canopy. If need be I can reduce the performance figures slightly, but would prefer to keep them close to the OTL P-47D as possible.

The EMB-41 has been in service since about the middle of 1941 via some examples procured from Republic and domestically manufactured examples.

As I have it in mind, the proposal for the bubble canopy and other minor improvements stems from the testing of the EMB-41/P-47C. As these proposals came later in testing, it was decided to begin work on a modified version so as not to delay the EMB-41.

Entry into production in mid to late 1942 with formal service entery beginning in early 1943, but some small numbers would most likely be in service before then.

Quoted

Without being able to locate a good set of stats for the P-47C, which is the EMB-41, I cannot say how much better performance wise the EMB-42 is then the -41.

Something like this?

http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/titl…erbolt/t/121038

ah, that would do it. Thank you much.

The P-47C and the P-47D started as essentially the same aircraft, just produced in different factories. The 47D designation was used for the sub-variants, and this is why most sources usually list the trailing number. D models were built with the razorback cockpit and the bubble canopy both, with the bubble canopy eventually becoming the "definitive" version of the P-47D.

Given that, unless the EMB-42 aims to offer significant improvements over the EMB-41, I'd suggest that revising the EMB-41 to have a bubble canopy would just take three or four months at most.

I doubt there would be any chance a developing country like Brazil could develop and build anything like this .... at least historically.

Talking about tolerances and the like? They can really ruin the best design, especially one with wings of laminar flow profile.....

since when did the P-47 have a Laminar wing?

EMBRAER has produced some fighters in the past, and was a major partner in the P-47's development. Modifying the canopy, adding plumbed hardpoints, and making some other slight tweeks to the plane as a whole should be more then posible with a short turnaround. I am giving the program some additional time so as not to cause to much of a fuss with rushing the Tornado II into service.

I did not say the P-47 had laminar flow wings. I merely stated that (production) tolerances can ruin the best design - especially one with a design feature critical to any unplanned modification of its surface, e.g. a laminar flow wing.

I was jumping on Daidalos' comment because I have just read about these things, eventually sidetracking the original topic of this thread. Sorry.

Quoted

Originally posted by Daidalos
I doubt there would be any chance a developing country like Brazil could develop and build anything like this .... at least historically.

Thankfully, we're hardly historical here.

But we try to be reasonably realistic even so.

The Cigar-Smoking Filipino Penguin Paratroopers reject your realism and substitute their own!