WesWorld

If there ever was a class that could be justified as being quite invincible in battle...it would have to be what i am going to show you now...make way for the INVINCIBLE CLASS BATTLESHIPS...HMS Invincible and HMS Indestructible. Based on the powerful HMS Agincourt (ex Rio de Janiero) these ships pack fourteen 15" guns in seven 2-gun turrets. The ships' protection scheme is very well-designed, with thick belt armor, conning tower, the whole kit. I wonder what would have happened if these ships opened fire all their main guns at the Germans at the Battle of Jutland. A combined 28-gun salvo weighing 53,760 pounds...just imagine if all those shells hit their target....KA-BOOM!!!!

Invincible Class – World's Most Powerful Battleships laid down 1914

Units: HMS Invincible and HMS Indestructible

Displacement: 65,480 t light; 68,781 t standard; 78,400 t normal; 86,095 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(1,000.00 ft / 990.00 ft) x 130.00 ft (Bulges 132.00 ft) x (35.00 ft / 37.79 ft)
(304.80 m / 301.75 m) x 39.62 m (Bulges 40.23 m) x (10.67 m / 11.52 m)

Armament:
14 - 15.00" / 381 mm 42.0 cal guns – 1,920 lbs / 871 kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1914 Model
7 x 2-gun mounts on centerline (2 forward, 2 amidships, 3 aft)
2 raised mounts (superfiring)
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm 50.0 cal guns – 100 lbs / 45.36kg shells, 700 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1914 Model
12 x single mounts on sides (evenly spread)
40 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 60.0 cal guns – 2.14lbs / 0.97kg shells, 1,500 per gun
AA guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1914 Model
10 x 2 row quad mounts on sides (evenly spread)
4 raised mounts

Ø Weight of main battery broadside = 26,880 lbs

Armor:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 643.50 ft / 196.14 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Upper: 4.50" / 114 mm 643.50 ft / 196.14 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined 20.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
3.00" / 76 mm 643.50 ft / 196.14 m 35.00 ft / 10.67 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 100.00 ft / 30.48 m

- Gun Armor: Face (max) Other Gunhouse (avg) Barbette / Hoist (max)
Main: 18.0" / 457 mm 13.0" / 330 mm 16.0" / 406 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm - 1.50" / 38 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Box over machinery & magazines:
• Fore and Aft Decks: 8.00" / 203 mm
• Forecastle: 4.00" / 102 mm
• Quarter Deck: 4.00" / 102 mm

- Conning Tower: 18.00" / 457 mm

Machinery:
• Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
• Geared drive, 4 shafts, 100,926 shp = 25 kts
• Range 15,000nm @ 15 kts
• Bunker at normal / max displacement = 9,619 tons / 17,315 tons

Complement: 2,342 - 3,045

Cost: £6.348 million / $25.393 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
• Armament: 4,783 tons, 6.1 %
o Guns: 4,783 tons, 6.1 %
• Armor: 28,174 tons, 35.9 %
o Belts: 10,783 tons, 13.8 %
o Torpedo bulkhead: 2,500 tons, 3.2 %
o Armament: 10,019 tons, 12.8 %
o Armor Deck: 4,161 tons, 5.3 %
o Conning Tower: 710 tons, 0.9 %
• Machinery: 3,888 tons, 5.0 %
• Hull, Fittings & Equipment: 27,885 tons, 35.6 %
• Fuel, Ammunition & Stores: 12,920 tons, 16.5 %
• Miscellaneous Weights: 750 tons, 1.0 %
o Hull below water: 300 tons
o Hull above water: 200 tons
o On freeboard deck: 200 tons
o Above deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
• Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
o 232,458 lbs / 105,441 kg = 137.8 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 53.1 torpedoes
• Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
• Metacentric Height (GM): 9.9 ft / 3.0 m
• Roll Period: 17.6 seconds
• Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.80
• Seaboat Quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull Form Characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck, a normal bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.600 / 0.610
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 33.99 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 37 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 7.50 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 43.75 ft / 13.34 m, 40.25 ft / 12.27 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 40.25 ft / 12.27 m, 38.60 ft / 11.77 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 38.60 ft / 11.77 m, 38.60 ft / 11.77 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 38.60 ft / 11.77 m, 38.60 ft / 11.77 m
- Average freeboard: 39.46 ft / 12.03 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
• Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 56.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 306.0 %
• Waterplane Area: 96,508 Square feet or 8,966 Square metres
• Displacement Factor (displacement / loading): 137 %
• Structure weight / hull surface area: 234 lbs/sq ft or 1,143 Kg/sq metre
• Hull Strength (Relative):
o Cross-sectional: 0.95
o Longitudinal: 1.66
o Overall: 1.00
• Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
• Excellent accommodation and workspace room
• Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
• Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

I think we can safely call this one "a British Tillman."

I wonder if she will snap in two should the Bri´tish really built her and fire a broadside. XoP

What do you guys think of the design...is it practical battleship...as far as armament and armor is conerned i seem to be going overboard but is done for protection's sake. I don't want a ship named Invincible to blow up (i.e. like the one at Jutland)

This is the strongest armament i could come up with, because i tried the same number of 16" guns and came up with SS telling me the recoil effect is 1.46, which is really undesirable. So i scaled down the guns to 15-inchers and made a more practical ship out of that.

Feel free to comment more on my design... as well as giving me a realistic timeline (ie could these ships really have been completed in time for Jutland...or am i way off timewise). I want to see what you guys think of these ships...concerning armament, armor, and speed (25 knots can't be called fast...but HMS Agincourt could only make 22 knots...so a shade faster...) For a battleship the seaworthiness and stability is excellent compared to many domestic and foreign designs)

I don't know if any you guys can do this...but i would want someone to estimate the IZ (immune zone) for these ships. At what ranges are my battleships most vulnerable?

Any other comments would be appreciated...I love this design and doesn't seem to ponderous considering the 15" guns reliability and hard-hitting potential.

I'll let others speak to the specifics of Springsharp design, I'll comment on the practical aspects.

The size of the vessel - 1,000 feet in length - would very likely dwarf any building slip or dock in the British Isles. No British battleship of Great War vintage was so massive. The first task in constructing such a vessel would be to build the dock in which to build her.

Secondly, under Wesworld rules - which I agree diverge from reality at points - the vessel would require a minimum of 74 months to construct and another 6 to work up, or 80 months. That is nearly 7 years. If laid down in 1914, they might have been ready to by 1921.

With a displacement of almost 80,000 tons normal, I think it would be far more economical to build two smaller QE or R-class battleships - they'd cost the same but have two more 15" guns and greater tactical flexibility.

Here is my 2nd iteration of my INVINCIBLE Class Battleships. I made them a bit bigger than the historical HMS Agincourt (1913) but carry the same battery of fourteen 12" guns. Protection-wise i was able to squeeze in thicker armor and 2 knots more speed into a ship that devotes much weight to armament. I also fixed a small armament problem i found - 40mm Bofors were not WW1 weapons - so i looked up HMS Agincourt and designed my INVINCIBLE CLASS accordingly, with 6"/45 secondaries and 3"/50 tertiary battery. I also included 4 submerged beam topedo tubes in the design, just to add some sort of ASW capability.

Anyway, comment on these more "practical" battleships, much smaller but still packing awesome firepower.

If these ships were completed in time for action at Jutland (which i presume commencing construction in 1912 would put them at completion somewhere in 1914 or early 1915, perfect for the Battle of Jutland), what sort of damage could they have inflicted on the German battlecruiser/battleships?

Invincible Class – World's Most Powerful Battleships

Units: HMS Invincible and HMS Indestructible

Displacement: 30,482 t light; 32,535 t standard; 35,100 t normal; 37,152 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(720.00 ft / 710.00 ft) x 94.00 ft (Bulges 96.00 ft) x (30.00 ft / 31.50 ft)
(219.46 m / 216.41 m) x 28.65 m (Bulges 29.26 m) x (9.14 m / 9.60 m)

Armament:
14 - 12.00" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns – 850 lbs / 385.6 kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1912 Model
7 x 2-gun mounts on centerline, evenly spread (2 forward, 2 amidships, 3 aft)
2 raised mounts – superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm 50.0 cal guns – 100 lbs / 45.4 kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1912 Model
12 x single mounts on sides evenly spread
10 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns – 14 lbs / 6.3 kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1912 Model
10 x single mounts on sides evenly spread
4 raised mounts
4 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 29.50 ft / 9.0 m torpedoes - 1.833 t each, 7.331 t total
submerged side tubes (on beam)

Weight of main battery broadside = 11,900 lbs

Armor:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.5" / 368 mm 461.50 ft / 140.67 m 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
Ends: 2.50" / 64 mm 248.48 ft / 75.74 m 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
Upper: 6.40" / 163 mm 461.50 ft / 140.67 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined 20.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
3.50" / 89 mm 461.50 ft / 140.67 m 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 86.00 ft / 26.21 m

- Gun Armor: Face (max) Other Gunhouse (avg) Barbette / Hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm

- Box over machinery & magazines:
4.75" / 121 mm
Forecastle: 3.10" / 79 mm
Quarter deck: 3.10" / 79 mm

- Conning Tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
• Oil fired boilers, steam turbines
• Direct drive, 4 shafts, 59,920 shp = 24.00 kts
• Range 10,000nm @ 12 knots
• Bunker at normal / max displacement = 2,565 tons / 4,617 tons (fuel oil)

Complement: 1,281 - 1,666

Cost: £2.698 million / $10.791 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
• Armament: 3,124 tons, 8.9 %
o Guns: 3,109 tons, 8.9 %
o Weapons: 15 tons, 0.0 %
• Armor: 14,738 tons, 42.0 %
o Belts: 7,249 tons, 20.7 %
o Torpedo bulkhead: 1,853 tons, 5.3 %
o Armament: 3,515 tons, 10.0 %
o Armor Deck: 1,798 tons, 5.1 %
o Conning Tower: 323 tons, 0.9 %
• Machinery: 2,389 tons, 6.8 %
• Hull, Fittings & Equipment: 9,481 tons, 27.0 %
• Fuel, Ammunition & Stores: 4,618 tons, 13.2 %
• Miscellaneous Weights: 750 tons, 2.1 %
o Hull below water: 300 tons
o Hull above water: 200 tons
o On freeboard deck: 200 tons
o Above deck: 50 tons

Overall Survivability and Seakeeping Ability:
• Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
o 64,793 lbs / 29,390 kg = 75.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 8.2 torpedoes
• Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
• Metacentric Height (GM): 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
• Roll Period: 16.5 seconds
• Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 68 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.82
• Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.90

Hull Form Characteristics:
• Hull has a flush deck, a ram bow and a cruiser stern
• Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.601 / 0.606
• Length to Beam Ratio: 7.40 : 1
• 'Natural speed' for length: 26.65 kts
• Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
• Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 36
• Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 7.50 degrees
• Stern overhang: -5.00 ft / -1.52 m
• Freeboard Breakdown:
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 32.10 ft / 9.78 m, 28.50 ft / 8.69 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 28.50 ft / 8.69 m, 26.50 ft / 8.08 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 26.50 ft / 8.08 m, 26.50 ft / 8.08 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 26.50 ft / 8.08 m, 26.50 ft / 8.08 m
- Average freeboard: 27.49 ft / 8.38 m

Ship Space, Strength and Comments:
• Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 65.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 191.6 %
• Waterplane Area: 47,788 square feet or 4,440 square metres
• Displacement Factor (displacement / loading): 108 %
• Structure weight / hull surface area: 176 lbs/sq ft or 860 kg/sq metre
• Hull Strength (Relative):
o Cross-sectional: 0.95
o Longitudinal: 1.64
o Overall: 1.00
• Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
• Excellent accommodation and workspace room
• Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Quoted

Originally posted by RMSCANADA
I also included 4 submerged beam topedo tubes in the design, just to add some sort of ASW capability.

Just a note, but the torpedoes wouldn't be for ASW. That's what destroyers are for.

about the topedoes......i didn't mean against submarines...i probably meant in a fleet action against the Germans...other than that, what do you think of the design???

I think an 8x15" armament would work better. I'm not a fan of turret farms for anything except amusement value. (Your mileage may vary.)

I agree with Brock, why would the RN go back to the 12" L45 when they ditched that after the Bellerophon class? If you want a copy of the HMS Agincourt, do note that the RN was the third owner of that ship, so had nothing to do with its original design.