WesWorld

A major refit of the Zara class heavy cruisers after over ten years of service. The internal fittings have been refurbished for life extension purposes and more modern equipment added, especially electronics. The secondary armament has been altered with the removal of the 100/47 battery and it's replacement by more modern 76/62 and 25mm weapons. It is expected that the ships may serve another decade before being obsolete; already there are much larger and newer cruisers afloat.


RM Zara, Italian Cruiser laid down 1927, Refitted 1941

Displacement:
11,239 t light; 11,843 t standard; 13,155 t normal; 14,206 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(603.33 ft / 590.55 ft) x 67.59 ft x (23.79 / 25.19 ft)
(183.89 m / 180.00 m) x 20.60 m x (7.25 / 7.68 m)

Armament:
8 - 8.00" / 203 mm 53.0 cal guns - 276.24lbs / 125.30kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1927 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 62.0 cal guns - 14.86lbs / 6.74kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1941 Model
16 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
4 raised mounts
20 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 77.0 cal guns - 0.54lbs / 0.24kg shells, 4,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1927 Model
20 x Single mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 2,458 lbs / 1,115 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 370.73 ft / 113.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 2.76" / 70 mm For and Aft decks
Forecastle: 2.76" / 70 mm Quarter deck: 2.76" / 70 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 5.91" / 150 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 96,400 shp / 71,914 Kw = 31.62 kts
Range 4,215nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,363 tons

Complement:
613 - 798

Cost:
£3.987 million / $15.949 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 855 tons, 6.5 %
Armour: 2,852 tons, 21.7 %
- Belts: 898 tons, 6.8 %
- Armament: 535 tons, 4.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,348 tons, 10.2 %
- Conning Tower: 71 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 3,043 tons, 23.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,425 tons, 33.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,916 tons, 14.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 65 tons, 0.5 %
- Above deck: 65 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,808 lbs / 7,170 Kg = 61.7 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.485 / 0.495
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.74 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 18.93 %, 26.08 ft / 7.95 m, 22.80 ft / 6.95 m
- Forward deck: 46.07 %, 22.80 ft / 6.95 m, 22.80 ft / 6.95 m
- Aft deck: 16.07 %, 12.96 ft / 3.95 m, 12.96 ft / 3.95 m
- Quarter deck: 18.93 %, 12.96 ft / 3.95 m, 12.96 ft / 3.95 m
- Average freeboard: 19.61 ft / 5.98 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 165.1 %
Waterplane Area: 26,236 Square feet or 2,437 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 120 lbs/sq ft or 584 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.47
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

30t = RaA.2 Air Search Radar and IFF
10t = RaS.4 Surface Warning Radar
5t = Radio Beacon
20t = 2 x GDR.101

Interesting electronics choices, particularly in the application of an IFF system. I wasn't aware that IFF was used for warships until a bit later - or do I misunderstand, and is the IFF used for identifying friendly aircraft, rather than the ship?

What's "GDR.101"? I ran a google search on it and most of the results were "Italian shoes". Presumably Italy isn't equipping its cruisers with twenty tons of high-quality footwear...

Also, please remember that SS3 is still a no-go.

IFF bar on top of the main air search radar. Alongside that there's a small surface search radar. No gunnery radars, it's a bit early to start mounting them on everything.

GDR101 was just a bit of topweight to represent the HA/LA FC directors.

This is with SS3b2 which is identical to SS2 besides the report format.

I like the drawings, though I think the anchor notch in the bow on the older picture would look better on the new drawing, IMO anyway.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
This is with SS3b2 which is identical to SS2 besides the report format.

Really? Cuz I simmed it in SS2 and it comes out with higher light and standard weight, but lower full load. It also has excess hull strength.


Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1927 (Engine 1941)

Displacement:
11,524 t light; 11,999 t standard; 13,155 t normal; 14,079 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
603.33 ft / 590.55 ft x 67.59 ft x 23.79 ft (normal load)
183.89 m / 180.00 m x 20.60 m x 7.25 m

Armament:
8 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 276.24lbs / 125.30kg shells, 1927 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 14.86lbs / 6.74kg shells, 1941 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
20 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.54lbs / 0.24kg shells, 1927 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 2,458 lbs / 1,115 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 370.73 ft / 113.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 2.76" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 96,456 shp / 71,956 Kw = 31.62 kts
Range 4,215nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,080 tons

Complement:
613 - 798

Cost:
£3.649 million / $14.596 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 290 tons, 2.2 %
Armour: 2,819 tons, 21.4 %
- Belts: 912 tons, 6.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 498 tons, 3.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1,338 tons, 10.2 %
- Conning Tower: 71 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,549 tons, 19.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,801 tons, 44.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,631 tons, 12.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 65 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,751 lbs / 8,506 Kg = 73.2 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 14.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.43
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.485
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.74 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.08 ft / 7.95 m
- Forecastle (19 %): 22.80 ft / 6.95 m
- Mid (65 %): 22.80 ft / 6.95 m (12.96 ft / 3.95 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (19 %): 12.96 ft / 3.95 m
- Stern: 12.96 ft / 3.95 m
- Average freeboard: 19.61 ft / 5.98 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 165.1 %
Waterplane Area: 26,235 Square feet or 2,437 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 128 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 140 lbs/sq ft or 685 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.14
- Longitudinal: 1.80
- Overall: 1.19
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Differing number of shells per gun for the secondaries could contribute to part of that, but not .19 composite IMO

Per Hoo when I asked this afternoon for clarification:

Quoted

SSv2.1 is the version to be used for any official design on WesWorld. No other SS version is accepted.

So no SS3 - regardless of version and what people say.

I think the picture gives a good impression how ships change their looks when modified. And there is just one thing I wonder about: Are those small guns on the bow and stern? If so, I wonder if they are well placed. At the extreme bows the vertical motion of the ship is the highest and could make accurate AA fire impossible - besides spray or overcoming water on the bow.

Is freeboard on the new ships higher than before? THe drawing seems to indicate that.

Finally I have a more general question that affects my own modernization programs too: Will lifts and magazines on the ships sides be able to support additional medium mounts? Those modern DP guns with their high ROF need a lot of ammo supply but usually there is not much room for additional magazines or lifts abreast machinery spaces. What is your take on this?

Differences are in armament only. Fewer shells are carried for secondary weapons which reduces mass. Additionally the armament mass calculation was re-worked in SS3b2 to take into account weapon length and more mounting details. Overall the effect is negligible, and SS3b2 is more pessimistic.

Quoted

And there is just one thing I wonder about : Are those small guns on the bow and stern? If so, I wonder if they are well placed. At the extreme bows the vertical motion of the ship is the highest and could make accurate AA fire impossible - besides spray or overcoming water on the bow.

Yes, there are some light guns on the bow and stern as found with historical Italian vessels. It's not the greatest location for them but should be fine when not in heavy weather.

Freeboard is slightly higher on the drawing as I used a new baseline hull to re-draw. The previous freeboard used was a bit small to scale.

Probably a good point about secondary weapons. Quite likely just deck lockers for the previous 100/47 mountings. Might be an issue.


Zara, Heavy Cruiser laid down 1927, Refitted 1941

Displacement:
11,367 t light; 11,843 t standard; 13,155 t normal; 14,206 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
603.33 ft / 590.55 ft x 67.59 ft x 23.79 ft (normal load)
183.89 m / 180.00 m x 20.60 m x 7.25 m

Armament:
8 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns in single mounts, 276.24lbs / 125.30kg shells, 1927 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 14.86lbs / 6.74kg shells, 1941 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all forward, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.53lbs / 0.24kg shells, 1927 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 2,458 lbs / 1,115 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 370.73 ft / 113.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 2.76" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 96,400 shp / 71,914 Kw = 31.62 kts
Range 4,215nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,363 tons

Complement:
613 - 798

Cost:
£3.880 million / $15.522 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 290 tons, 2.2 %
Armour: 2,896 tons, 22.0 %
- Belts: 912 tons, 6.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 575 tons, 4.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,338 tons, 10.2 %
- Conning Tower: 71 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 3,043 tons, 23.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,073 tons, 38.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,788 tons, 13.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 65 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,545 lbs / 7,505 Kg = 64.6 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 14.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.485
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.74 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.08 ft / 7.95 m
- Forecastle (19 %): 22.80 ft / 6.95 m
- Mid (65 %): 22.80 ft / 6.95 m (12.96 ft / 3.95 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (19 %): 12.96 ft / 3.95 m
- Stern: 12.96 ft / 3.95 m
- Average freeboard: 19.61 ft / 5.98 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 165.1 %
Waterplane Area: 26,236 Square feet or 2,437 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 123 lbs/sq ft or 599 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.02
- Longitudinal: 1.53
- Overall: 1.07
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
Differences are in armament only. Fewer shells are carried for secondary weapons which reduces mass. Additionally the armament mass calculation was re-worked in SS3b2 to take into account weapon length and more mounting details. Overall the effect is negligible, and SS3b2 is more pessimistic.

Quoted

SSv2.1 is the version to be used for any official design on WesWorld. No other SS version is accepted.

So no SS3 - regardless of version and what people say.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
SSv2.1 is the version to be used for any official design on WesWorld. No other SS version is accepted.

So no SS3 - regardless of version and what people say.

That's fair enough with SSb3 which has significant differences, especially with regards to propulsion (a new drag model IIRC). However, SS3b2 is essentially the same as SS2.1 underneath; it just allows for additional detail with regards to things like number of shells for secondary armament, improved layout options. Important to note that SS3b2 is not more optimistic.

Quoted

Differing number of shells per gun for the secondaries could contribute to part of that, but not .19 composite IMO

Actually I think ammo is only a small part. I think armament weight has a bigger impact on the hull strength.

SS 3 armament weight = 855 tons
SS 2 armament weight = 290 tons

565 tons is quite a bit. We have quite a few ships around that are lighter than that difference.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
SSv2.1 is the version to be used for any official design on WesWorld. No other SS version is accepted.

So no SS3 - regardless of version and what people say.

That's fair enough with SSb3 which has significant differences, especially with regards to propulsion (a new drag model IIRC). However, SS3b2 is essentially the same as SS2.1 underneath; it just allows for additional detail with regards to things like number of shells for secondary armament, improved layout options. Important to note that SS3b2 is not more optimistic.

But it comes down to the sim needing a common baseline, I think. All ships need to be judged by the same standard, and given that SS3 went through a beta or two, and was then abandoned, a lot of folks don't consider it (any of it's iterations) adequate (for whatever reasons). Hoo seems fairly dead set on maintaining the SS2 standard, so I think it'd be better to let him make his comments than using Brock (or anyone else) as a relay.

If there's to be a substantial discussion or debate on the merits of the Beta iterations of SS3 vis-a-vis SS2.1, I would suggest a new topic in the meeting place to be the proper venue.