WesWorld

For OOC comments

The Dutch wish to set up a cooperative effort with the Thais, Iberians, French and British.

Do any of the above have an objection to the following proposal :

The five escort flotillas (40 vessels) in the Dutch East Indies are brought to readiness. Two flotillas will be transferred to Bangkok and seconded to the Thai navy. One flotilla will transit to San Hianando and be seconded to the Iberian Navy.

These escort flotillas will offer regularly scheduled convoys to AEGIS, SAER and SAE shipping which wishes to avail itself of the service. Convoy times and routes will be published in advance and provided to the Chinese and Philippine Ambassadors.

Convoys will follow the following route : Singapore, Bangkok, Sai Gon, Da Nang, Hai Phong, Hai kou, and Hong Kong.

Two Seaplane tenders will be transferred to the Greater Natuna Island base, supplementing the T.VIII aerial reconnasance from that location, covering from French Indochina to Borneo.

Might the neutral shipping of other nations be permitted to avail themselves of such convoy?

I would have no qualms about that.

While I have no specific objection to that proposal, France, Great Britain and Iberia have already agreed to create a Tripartite Neutrality Patrol sometime in late October or early November. In order to prevent the (virtually inevitable from my point of view) charge that such a force would be a SAER-dominated patsy, we didn't extend any further invitations beyond the three of us.

If Mac and Hood want to expand to include the Dutch and Thais, then I've no specific objection... but I think in that case we should invite the Japanese, should they be adopting a neutral stance in this war [1]. (If Japan does not declare neutrality and aids one side or the other, I don't think an invitation would be possible.)

Note [1]: Yes, I'm fishing for a semi-official Japanese statement on the conflict.

Maybe have France, Great Britain and Iberia do the neutrality patrol for individual ship and the Dutch and Thais run neutral convoys for any who want it along KKs proposed route?

How does Thailand fit into SAER? Including a nation from the region might help to absolve some fears that parties may have.

Quoted

Originally posted by snip
Maybe have France, Great Britain and Iberia do the neutrality patrol for individual ship and the Dutch and Thais run neutral convoys for any who want it along KKs proposed route?

At the moment, convoys are not yet proven to be needed: the war posted so far has taken place solely around the Spratley Islands. Although I know OOC it will expand, that is not yet clear in-character and resorting to convoys NOW is, in my opinion, unjustified.

While convoys might be more viable once/if the conflict expands, it would be easier for neutrality-interested parties to declare everything west of 111E Longitude as "neutral waters", then declare a corridor to Hong Kong and Macau.

Quoted

Originally posted by snip
How does Thailand fit into SAER? Including a nation from the region might help to absolve some fears that parties may have.

So far as I'm aware, Thailand is not in SAER.

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
Might the neutral shipping of other nations be permitted to avail themselves of such convoy?

It is my interpretation that any non-belligerent power engaged in trade would be protected by such a force, if requested.

The neutrality patrol would be to protect shipping of all nations to transit the area and would be willing to set up routes and cover convoys to many different ports, of course avoiding the main battle zones as far as possible.

National waters (i.e. the Empires of UK, Netherlands, Iberia, Denmark and France etc) will be protected by national forces operating within their 3 mile zones. The RN may make a broader sweep since it needs to transit Malaya to Sawarak safely and islands south of that. The RN will police its own convoy from Singapore to Hong Kong for purely British registered ships at present but probably opening the convoy ot other nations later on when the risks can be properly measured.

SAER will be sharing intelligence etc as usual (which happens all the time) but there will be no SAER response to this crisis. GB, as other nations too no doubt, has a whole stack of scenarios and war plans ready and so to be on the safe side convoys are the first step to ensure safety. It would take perhaps two weeks or more to get the first convoys organised and running.

It would be wise for all players (script writers too) to note than any damage to a neutral ship (merchant or otherwise) will be looked upon seriously. SAER would probably not be invoked at all in this scenario as we want to build relations with the Phillippines after the war. It would be open to national responses (probably calls for a ceasefire, compensation, and of course forcing the settlement of various territorial matters legally via international panel and perhaps calls for a naval and wider arms limitation treaty for the entire SE Asia region).

Quoted

At the moment, convoys are not yet proven to be needed: the war posted so far has taken place solely around the Spratley Islands. Although I know OOC it will expand, that is not yet clear in-character and resorting to convoys NOW is, in my opinion, unjustified.

Never hurts to plan ahead. Going to all that trouble when there has been one big naval battle makes little sense. As there are more, well then it starts to look better. If subs come into play, well then there is every reason to do it.

1. No, Convoys are * not* needed. This is a service for potential concerned Merchants. Merchant captains who wish to adjust their schedules can take advantage of it, but is rather up to them. Further, escorts can hold cargo manifests and certify that no contraband to belligerants is being transported and so avoid stop and search actions.

The Dutch have dedicated escort squadrons for this type of thing. With 40 escorts available, small convoys with 4 escorts can run on a regular schedule. By informing the Chinese and Filipinos of the routes and times, potential incidents should be avoided.

2. If incidents do occur, it will not be a mysteriously vanished merchant, but an attack on a clearly identified and disclosed military force with dire potential repercussions.

3. The original offer was to be restricted to Dutch allies and SAE- not to 3rd party nuetrals that have not sought Dutch military ties.

4. I was not aware of the Triparte arrangement thus why I put this up for comment in the OOC thread. However, as the Iberians are our (and Thailands) AEGIS allies, we view their LOC as part of our natural concern-- as we do for out SAER allies even though this isn't quite a SATSUMA thing...

However, if the French/Brits/Iberians don't need the Dutch to bother, thats ok too. Saves on $.

And the Brits and Dutch still disagree on extent of territorial waters

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
1. No, Convoys are * not* needed. This is a service for potential concerned Merchants. Merchant captains who wish to adjust their schedules can take advantage of it, but is rather up to them. Further, escorts can hold cargo manifests and certify that no contraband to belligerants is being transported and so avoid stop and search actions.

The Dutch have dedicated escort squadrons for this type of thing. With 40 escorts available, small convoys with 4 escorts can run on a regular schedule. By informing the Chinese and Filipinos of the routes and times, potential incidents should be avoided.

2. If incidents do occur, it will not be a mysteriously vanished merchant, but an attack on a clearly identified and disclosed military force with dire potential repercussions.

Mmm, point.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
The RN will police its own convoy from Singapore to Hong Kong for purely British registered ships at present but probably opening the convoy ot other nations later on when the risks can be properly measured.

Just British, or Commonwealth flagged? (On the assumption there's a smattering of Oz and Canuck flagged ships plying those waters)

I'll also point out that between PuttenClass patrol boats, gunboats and escorts, the Dutch can field over 140 small vessels capable of the route without touching main fleet units.

As for the area between Malaysia and Sarawak/Borneo- as a seperate matter the Dutch will be moving 2 seaplane tenders to Greater Natuna island (1) to supplement the T.VIIIs that normally operate Air seach from there. This gives aerial recon coverage of Indochina-Borneo/Sarawak.

(1) part of the IRL Riau Islands province.

Why are the Philippine carrier pilots still using A5Ms? Swampy ordered I-01Ns from Argentina to replace them, I thought...

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
Why are the Philippine carrier pilots still using A5Ms? Swampy ordered I-01Ns from Argentina to replace them, I thought...

Did he? Another thing lost in the changes. I can say they were never delivered. But if is ok with Hood I can make the changes to I-01N on the text and the orders of battle. I guess I wait for his response.

Shin,
Yes it would cover Canadian and Australian merchants too.

Brock, I don't remember Swampy ordering any I-01Ns nor any discussions about doing so.
If its vital for the story we could backdate an order.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
Shin,
Yes it would cover Canadian and Australian merchants too.

Brock, I don't remember Swampy ordering any I-01Ns nor any discussions about doing so.
If its vital for the story we could backdate an order.

They are not vital so i guess sale was discussed but never happened.

The Dutch approach to protect allied shipping through the endangered waters is most welcome.

The SAE Admiralty will contact their Dutch counterpart to further discuss the issue.

Well a Jakarta-Singapore-Bangkok-Saigon-San Hianando route is only around 2,400nm- in range. At 8 knots that's 12.5 days.

Since it's basically a nuetrality patrol, simply fielding half-squadrons of escorts, the 5 escort flotillas can make 10 half-squadrons, and presuming the Thais want to add in say 8 of the Bangkok DDs for 2 more groups, that would be 12 groups. Other assets could be easily added for more groups.

Schedule departures at dawn of every third day and merchants who wish a free escort would not have to wait long, while the crews have a little layover time.

Hmmmm... I could add in a few DDs. Eight would be pushing it (only 15 assigned to the First Fleet) but doable for a short time. I could also toss in the Chakri Nareubet as well as a leader if that is needed. Im also overflowing with MTBs if those will be useful for some legs.