WesWorld

Right, Im BACK!

In order to check I am not barking up the wrong tree on any changes to how we design things please feel free to cast your eyes over the big ships from Nordmark for 1940:-

RNNS Gam Class, Nordmark Aircraft Carrier laid down 1940

Displacement:
30,000 t light; 31,062 t standard; 34,681 t normal; 37,576 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(881.59 ft / 820.00 ft) x 98.00 ft x (28.50 / 30.27 ft)
(268.71 m / 249.94 m) x 29.87 m x (8.69 / 9.23 m)

Armament:
12 - 5.12" / 130 mm 52.0 cal guns - 65.00lbs / 29.48kg shells, 480 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1940 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
4 x Single mounts on sides amidships
4 raised mounts
64 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 56.0 cal guns - 1.65lbs / 0.75kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1940 Model
16 x Quad mounts on side ends, evenly spread
16 raised mounts
48 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 6,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1940 Model
24 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft deck forward
24 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 899 lbs / 408 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.50" / 114 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 27.00 ft / 8.23 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.50" / 38 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armoured deck - single deck: 3.00" / 76 mm For and Aft decks
Forecastle: 1.50" / 38 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 2.50" / 64 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 163,514 shp / 121,981 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 5,140nm at 24.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,514 tons

Complement:
1,269 - 1,651

Cost:
£10.607 million / $42.430 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 291 tons, 0.8 %
Armour: 5,475 tons, 15.8 %
- Belts: 1,241 tons, 3.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,099 tons, 3.2 %
- Armament: 90 tons, 0.3 %
- Armour Deck: 2,988 tons, 8.6 %
- Conning Tower: 57 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 4,372 tons, 12.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,778 tons, 31.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,681 tons, 13.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 9,084 tons, 26.2 %
- Hull below water: 1,000 tons
- Hull above water: 1,525 tons
- On freeboard deck: 3,000 tons
- Above deck: 3,559 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
79,863 lbs / 36,225 Kg = 1,191.4 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 13.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.06
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.58

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.530 / 0.541
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.37 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 33.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 36.43 degrees
Stern overhang: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 12.00 %, 55.00 ft / 16.76 m, 50.00 ft / 15.24 m
- Forward deck: 58.00 %, 28.00 ft / 8.53 m, 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Aft deck: 10.00 %, 28.00 ft / 8.53 m, 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 28.00 ft / 8.53 m, 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Average freeboard: 30.88 ft / 9.41 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 67.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 240.7 %
Waterplane Area: 57,280 Square feet or 5,321 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 143 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 129 lbs/sq ft or 629 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.39
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather


Can Carry 84 Aircraft (Usually 36 Fighters, 42 Torpedo/Dive Bombers and 2 Helicopters) = 7056tons
8 Crated Aircraft @25t each = 200t
250tons for Command space & Electronics
200,000 gallons AVGAS = 760t
10000lb ordinance each for Fighters/Bombers = 368t
Catapults = 200t
Deck edge lift = 250t


------------------------------------------------

Gota Lejon Class, Nordmark Battlecruiser laid down 1940

Displacement:
29,765 t light; 31,461 t standard; 35,053 t normal; 37,926 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(822.25 ft / 805.00 ft) x 93.00 ft x (28.50 / 30.31 ft)
(250.62 m / 245.36 m) x 28.35 m x (8.69 / 9.24 m)

Armament:
9 - 12.00" / 305 mm 52.0 cal guns - 992.08lbs / 450.00kg shells, 135 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1940 Model
3 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
14 - 5.12" / 130 mm 52.0 cal guns - 65.00lbs / 29.48kg shells, 450 per gun
Dual purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1940 Model
6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
1 x Twin mount on centreline, aft evenly spread
1 raised mount
40 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 56.0 cal guns - 1.65lbs / 0.75kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1940 Model
5 x 2 row octuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
5 raised mounts
32 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1940 Model
16 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 9,913 lbs / 4,497 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 12.50 ft / 3.81 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 2.00" / 51 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 26.00 ft / 7.92 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 8.50" / 216 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.50" / 38 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 4.00" / 102 mm For and Aft decks
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.50" / 38 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 8.50" / 216 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 168,682 shp / 125,837 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 24.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,465 tons

Complement:
1,280 - 1,665

Cost:
£16.117 million / $64.470 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,013 tons, 5.7 %
Armour: 9,643 tons, 27.5 %
- Belts: 3,284 tons, 9.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 722 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 1,858 tons, 5.3 %
- Armour Deck: 3,584 tons, 10.2 %
- Conning Tower: 196 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 4,510 tons, 12.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,149 tons, 37.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,287 tons, 15.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1.3 %
- Hull below water: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 100 tons
- On freeboard deck: 150 tons
- Above deck: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
57,150 lbs / 25,923 Kg = 66.1 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 7.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 17.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.575 / 0.585
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.66 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 32.48 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 22.00 %, 37.00 ft / 11.28 m, 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forward deck: 50.00 %, 28.00 ft / 8.53 m, 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Aft deck: 13.00 %, 26.00 ft / 7.92 m, 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 26.00 ft / 7.92 m, 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Average freeboard: 27.73 ft / 8.45 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 222.1 %
Waterplane Area: 55,716 Square feet or 5,176 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 122 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 837 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.39
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Comments welcome as ever. These babies really need settling before I can start posting.

is a high price to pay to get 9 305mm guns on the water.

On the other hand, she can keep up with your carriers, and she'll intimidate anything less than a fully grown battleship.

And, faced with one of those, she'll buy time for her charges to escape.

Chile likes the concept of the Gota Lejon. They should, since they've got a near-clone under construction.

The Gam looks decent enough. The right size carrier. However, I don't see the need to assign extra miscellaneous weight to avgas unless it represents extra, over and above that which is accounted for elsewhere in the sim.

Quoted

Originally posted by AdmKuznetsov
is a high price to pay to get 9 305mm guns on the water.

On the other hand, she can keep up with your carriers, and she'll intimidate anything less than a fully grown battleship.

And, faced with one of those, she'll buy time for her charges to escape.

They won't intimidate Renown and Repulse, either, which I'd think would be in the minds of Nordmark's designers and admiralty.

Making it easier for Canada to reclaim a certain part of the North American continent seems to be on their minds.

Acctually I think in Wesworld, that peice of lands always been Nordish so I think "reclaim" isn't the right word but conquer might be.

Wesworld's Canadian government would disagree with you there, Wes, but my use of the word in that sentence was indeed not right.

The canadians are a concern, but not one that requires an Iowa sized solution.

No intent to copy the Chileans, though will now look it up to see how close I've got.

Quoted

Originally posted by Earl822
No intent to copy the Chileans, though will now look it up to see how close I've got.

Fairly close, actually. I used a modified version of the historical Alaska-class design.

about 9x305mm vs 6x356mm on Khranitel.

9x305mm would be perfect for a supercruiserkiller.

But 6x356 would do better against something with more armor.

So that's what I went with.

Hey, the SAE could lend & lease her cousins in Nordmark some nice RSAN capital ships, if you really want to tackle the Canadians. ;o)

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Hey, the SAE could lend & lease her cousins in Nordmark some nice RSAN capital ships, if you really want to tackle the Canadians. ;o)

Selling would doubtlessly be more profitable, as "renting" implies the presumption of being returned somewhat intact. Somehow I'd expect that when the RN-RCN-RAN got done, they wouldn't be in... quite as minty condition as when they went out! If, indeed, they return at all.

The carrier looks spot on.

Not sure I'm a fan of the Gota Lejon, many super-CAs are approaching this kind of armament and armour but it makes a decent cruiser killer and formidible radier. Faced against larger ships it would have to run.

Not sure if its a wise use of expenditure for Nordmark but I can see that it has a niche role and would be useful in any war Nordmark could find itself in.

Same speed as the CV, and enough armament/armor to buy time for their escape.

Now, as a surface raider, she would indeed be a waste of resources.

Depends on what the carrier meets...
The North Sea is small, the main threat to the carriers is aircraft, you can't outrun an aircraft but Gota would make a useful heavy AA barrage.

In the Atlantic its true she would serve as a useful surface escort but what if she stumbles upon a decent BB? (but it has to be asked what the carriers spotter planes are doing in that instance unless its bad weather). She might buy time but any BB with 15in or greater will smash Gota and in any case any decent commander with cruisers and destroyers in support will detach them to deal with the carrier while the BB draws off Gota. Once Gota is disabled/ sunk or even if she just driven off the enemy stil has time to track and hunt the carrier down.

This is why I'm suspicous of the carrier-escort arguement often wheeled out whenever a big ship with insufficent armour and firepower gets designed. OTL such escorts were rare except for the Alaskas and they began life as CA killers but bereft of a proper role they were reducded to AA platforms. In WW twisted logic seems to make more of these rather weak escorts and ranks them for higher importance than they really deserve.

I see Gota more as a CA-killer, a role that perhaps idicates a more independent role or as a flagship for a sqaudron of CLs as a surface sweep ahead of a battlefleet (with carriers in it) to destroy enemy scouting forces. By extension she is a radier killer, an enemy who uses powerful CAs for commerce raiding requires a fast ship like this with the firepower to make short work of a CA at ranges her armour will afford invulnerability. Adding from that logic Nordmark could use her as a commerce radier in her own right, forcing an enemy to detach CAs and BCs to catch her and therefore weakening the enemy battleline and splitting their effort globally. Look at what chaos the German panzerschiffe caused in just keeping track of them.

A far more rewarding role than sheperding a carrier and acting as a mobile AA battery. Especially given the cost of the ship.

Hood's comments reflect my own. While Chile designed the Constitucion as a surface escort for Libertad, her anticipated role has evolved. The French believe that a mix of CAs, CLs, and DDs are in fact the proper escorts for a carrier force - if a hostile surface ship jumps the carrier group, the torpedo attacks of a destroyer flotilla will be far more delaying to an attacker than a ship with big guns.

Further, I think people are forgetting that in the Pacific War, the USN had no qualms about matching 27-knot NoCals and SoDaks with the carriers. It's the cruise speed which mattered most, not having a matching top speed.