WesWorld

As per the news, the French Army is moving towards a force composed of two types of tank: the "destroyer tank" and the "battlecruiser tank". The former is designed to conduct battlefield reconnaissance and serve as a skirmishing tank to guard the flanks of heavier armoured units. It is also for service in the colonial regions were enemy tank and AT opposition is likely to be fairly minimal. The tank will also be used as the basis for developing a self-propelled artillery vehicle and an AA tank. It is yet uncertain if engineering vehicles will be based on this chassis, though.

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[SIZE=3]Renault Cavalry Tank[/SIZE]
Dimensions:
-- Length: 6.5m (hull and gun); 5m (hull)
-- Width: 2.6m
-- Height: 2.4m
Weight: 18 tons
Armament:
-- 75mm/L40
-- One 6.5mm GPMG
Speed: 55kph (road), 25-30kph (cross-country)
Engine: V12 diesel, 500hp
Transmission: Manual
Suspension: Auteuil (modified torsion bar)
Protection:
-- Turret face: 40mm
-- Glacis: 40mm
-- Sides: 15mm
Constructors: Renault (primary developer), SOMUA, AMX, Hotchkiss

As a quick response (debut 1941) to heavily-armoured and heavily-armed tanks, the French Army is developing a fast, low-slung, heavily-armed tank destroyer called the Drouot. The Drouot is designed to survive using it's low silhouette and its high maneuverability.

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[SIZE=3]Somua "Drouot" Tank Destroyer[/SIZE]
Dimensions:
-- Length: 8.5m (hull and gun); 6.25m (hull)
-- Width: 3m
-- Height: 2.15m
Weight: 28 tons
Armament:
-- 90mm/L40
-- Two 6.5mm GPMG
Speed: 50kph (road), 25kph (cross-country)
Engine: V12 diesel or de-turbocharged/downrated HS12Z; 500hp
Transmission: Manual
Suspension: Auteuil (modified torsion bar)
Protection:
-- Glacis: 50mm
-- Sides: 10mm
-- Roof: 10mm
Constructors: SOMUA (primary developer), ARL, APX, ACL

Interesting designs even if I think the engine output is a little bit too optimistic for 1941.
A 90mm gun seems to be over the top (at least for the year 1941), especially when you consider the relatively small size of the vehicle....what about the recoil, the weight of the gun itself, the number of shells carried and the reloading time? Those factors would improve by useing a smaller calibre. I think a 75mm/L46 or L48 would be the better choice.
I like the concept of the Drout and i think such a versatile and small tank destroyer will prove useful on the battlefield (like Stugs or Hetzters).

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Originally posted by Daidalos
A 90mm gun seems to be over the top (at least for the year 1941), especially when you consider the relatively small size of the vehicle.... Those factors would improve by useing a smaller calibre. I think a 75mm/L46 or L48 would be the better choice.

I'd prefer using the 75mm/L50 that's already in service, but unfortunately, the rest of the world has apparently decided we're not in 1941, but 1945, and they've introduced tanks more suitable to that era than this. Catch-22 for me, I'm afraid: if I introduce what ought to be historical, then I'm quite far behind everyone else; if I introduce stuff comparable to theirs, then I'm giving them justification to field even more advanced stuff even further in advance.

It's not any particular person's fault, but... *shrug*.

Although gun size has increased considerably compared to historical levels, the armour hasn't particularly. A 75/50 gun should still punch through most things with ease. There aren't many things around with more than 50mm frontal armour.

I think my main question would be what do they look like?

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Originally posted by Red Admiral
I think my main question would be what do they look like?

It'd be laid out like a StuG-III or IV, or a Jagdpanzer IV, but with the forward faceplate resembling a Jagdpanther or an Su-85/Su-100 (flat sloped frontal surface).

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Originally posted by Red Admiral
Although gun size has increased considerably compared to historical levels, the armour hasn't particularly. A 75/50 gun should still punch through most things with ease. There aren't many things around with more than 50mm frontal armour.

It depends on your spectre of choice. The Argun-C has 70mm sloped armour and a 90mm HV gun; so somebody's going to develop a tank with armour to resist that, which means that by the time the Drouot gets into service, it will potentially face tanks armed against 90mm already. So while a 75mm gun might cut it at this precise moment, I'm not designing it to be competitive at this precise moment - I'm designing it to be competitive enough to last five years in the current environment. I don't want to have to introduce it in 1941 then promptly replace it in 1942, which is the way I feel tank design's been going of late.

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Originally posted by Brockpaine

It depends on your spectre of choice. The Argun-C has 70mm sloped armour and a 90mm HV gun; so somebody's going to develop a tank with armour to resist that, which means that by the time the Drouot gets into service, it will potentially face tanks armed against 90mm already. So while a 75mm gun might cut it at this precise moment, I'm not designing it to be competitive at this precise moment - I'm designing it to be competitive enough to last five years in the current environment. I don't want to have to introduce it in 1941 then promptly replace it in 1942, which is the way I feel tank design's been going of late.

Brock has a valid point here. The development cycles on some Wesworld equipment tends to be quite short.

In Germany's case, it is locked into a 21-24 month development cycle for its new tank.

The first requirements to industry were issued in July 1940, and design submissions are not expected before December 1940 - and that is designs on paper, not hardware.

After that there is the Army Ordnance Review process, which would last until the spring of 1941; and given a problem-free development a mild-steel prototype might be available by February 1942. Under those circumstances - again, barring problems, low rate initial production of combat-worthy vehicles would not start until July 1942, with large-scale issues to the troops perhaps starting in the winter of 1942-43.

In framing the exact specifications of the vehicle as a player I have to look at what exists in the world - like the Arjun or the TT-37 - and what has been announced as forthcoming between 1940 - when this cycle starts - and 1942/43, when vehicles might be coming off the assembly lines.

It is frustrating when comparable vehicles seem to make appearance with frightening rapidity once a vehicle's specifications are announced. So, as Brock points out - either I match my specifications against the most formidable opponent known at the present time (and find myself outgunned by the next generation vehicle) or I try to over-reach and create the new 'most formidable' vehicle on the block.

It is a spiral of development that is quite real world, but merely faster in Wesworld due to the lack of barriers to development that exist in the real world (like funding cuts).

After further consideration, I give you...

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[SIZE=3]AMX/Somua Cavalry Tank[/SIZE]
Dimensions:
-- Length: 6.25m (hull), 7.6m (with gun)
-- Width: 3.0m
-- Height: 2.6m
Weight: 33 tonnes
Armament:
-- 75mm/L53 (Canon de 75mm mle 1941) [1]
-- 20mm MG
Speed: 50kph
Engine: 600hp diesel
Transmission: Manual
Suspension: Auteuil (modified Christie/torsion bar)
Protection:
-- Turret face: 90mm (sloped)
-- Glacis: 30mm-75mm (sloped)
-- Sides: 35mm
Constructors: SOMUA, AMX (primary developers), ARL, APX, ACL
Notes: Shares hull and major drive train components with the Drouot tank destroyer.

[1] Tank mounting for Canon de 75mm TAZ mle 1939

Perspective from the Sandwich between you.

The Dutch LT-35A started with a 45L48 gun in 1935, 65mm equiv Front Hull, 80mm equiv Front Turret.
The LT-35B was the same tank, with a low velocity 75L21 howitzer.

The LT-35C was prototyped in November 1936 and started trials in March of 1937, so probably came out by 1938 after various leaks and rumors of other folk's leading designs.
Which makes it's stats relevant as by 1940-41 the French should have figured it out.

The LT-35C would have had the Belgian 60L50gun (est. at roughly 99mm pen at 300m) The 20mm cast hull would have gone into production as the basic frame, with armored plates attached to that.
Raw armor depth would have been 70-75mm in the frontal arc. Protection levels would raise to 86mm equiv front hull, and 125mm equiv Front turret. Tonnage would rise to 31tons, PSI to 10.5, and speed drop to 14mph.

There may have been, or at least rumored, a LT-35D with a HV 75mm gun. This would have been false or explorations of a US-style TD type.

Work for the post-LT-35 started in 1936, and the next tank will likely feature an AT version of the the 90mm AA gun the Belgians were working on @1937.

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Originally posted by Brockpaine

I'd prefer using the 75mm/L50 that's already in service, but unfortunately, the rest of the world has apparently decided we're not in 1941, but 1945, and they've introduced tanks more suitable to that era than this. Catch-22 for me, I'm afraid: if I introduce what ought to be historical, then I'm quite far behind everyone else; if I introduce stuff comparable to theirs, then I'm giving them justification to field even more advanced stuff even further in advance.

It's not any particular person's fault, but... *shrug*.

Certainly something I understand, and a major reason I haven't been keeping my equipment pages up to date.

After some extensive consideration, I give you... the French Armour. I have endeavored to establish a logical system for designating the vehicles, even though it's not entirely historical (the historical French system for armoured vehicles doesn't follow a universal pattern).



[SIZE=3]Designations:[/SIZE]
Armoured vehicles receive a designation based on the following pattern: [Manufacturer] [Vehicle Abbreviation] [Modèle Number]-[Variant Letter] [Short Name]
- Manufacturer: the name of the company that designed or built the vehicle.
- Vehicle abbreviation: denotes the time of vehicle. Tanks are referred to as "Char" but all others are abbreviated.
- Modèle Number: a series of sequential numbers given to armoured vehicles. The Modèle Number is applied to the base chassis, and vehicles using the same chassis always use the same number (but not the same abbreviation).
- Variant Letter: denotes a sub-model of the vehicle. If there are no sub-models in service, the letter is dropped.
- Short Name: a spoken name applied to the vehicle, usually picked from a list of past persons of note, but exceptions exist.

[SIZE=3]Terms:[/SIZE]
- Char de combat / char de bataille / char d'assaut: a regular tank. Not abbreviated, but shortened to Char.
- Canons d'assaut: Assault gun, a tank-like vehicle with a low-velocity gun suitable for supporting infantry. Abbreviated "CDA".
- Canons automoteurs: Self-propelled gun, a mobile artillery piece mounted on a tank chassis. Abbreviated "CA".
- Chasseur de chars: Tank destroyer (literally 'hunter of tanks') with a high-velocity gun suitable for engaging and destroying enemy armoured vehicles at long ranges. Abbreviated CDC.
- Auto-Mitrailleuse de Découverte: An armoured car or light tank for long-ranged reconnaissance. Abbreviated "AMD".
- Auto-Mitrailleuse de Reconnaissance: An armoured car or light tank for short-ranged reconnaissance. Abbreviated "AMR".
- Défence Contre Aéronefs: A self-propelled anti-aircraft gun. Abbreviated "DCA".
- Véhicule blindé du génie: An armoured vehicle for use by military engineers, sappers, miners, etc. May come in sub-variants. Abbreviated "VBG".
- Véhicule de déminage: A version of an armoured engineering vehicle equipped for removing mines. Abbreviated "VD".
- Poseur de pont: A version of an armoured engineering vehicle equipped to lay prefabricated bridges. Abbreviated "PP".
- Véhicule blindé école: "Armoured School Vehicle", a designation for a vehicle designed to train tank crews. Abbreviated "VBE".
- Véhicule blindé auxiliaire: "Armoured Auxiliary Vehicle", a designation for vehicles not falling into the above categories. Usually refers to a fully-tracked cargo carrier based on a tank chassis, or a bridge-carrying vehicle (not bridge-laying). Abbreviated "VBA".

[SIZE=3]Modèle Numbers[/SIZE]
- Modèle 2: Transall heavy tank and variants.
- Modèle 6: Renault cavalry tank and variants.
- Modèle 7: Assigned but not used.
- Modèle 8: SOMUA cavalry tank and variants.
- Modèle 10: Proposed airborne light tank.
- Modèle 13: Proposed follow-on "battle-cruiser" tank.

[SIZE=3]Transall Char-2E Lefebvre (Transall Lefebvre Heavy Tank)[/SIZE]
This 45-ton heavy tank was designed jointly for the French, Atlantean, and Russian Armies. This tank is called the AT-37 in Atlantean service, and the TT-37 in Russian service; the French tanks are occasionally dubbed the FT-37. The Lefebvre wears the Char 2E designation as it was the fifth revision proposed, but at the present time no other variants are produced. The Char 2E is equipped with a 75mm/L45 gun, and the turret ring is capable of upgunning to at least a 100mm gun.

[SIZE=3]Renault Char-6 Bruyere (Renault Bruyere Cavalry Tank)[/SIZE]
Eighteen ton light tank with the 75mm/L39 gun. This tank is designed for use in colonial regions (West Africa and Indochina) where enemy tanks are not likely to be present in strength, as well as in reconnaissance units, where its mobility comes into play. As a result of the desired colonial applications, serious attempts have been made to maintain a low ground pressure, allowing the tank to move on softer ground. The Bruyere may additionally be used for screening the flanks of a larger advancing armoured force. The Bruyere chassis was designed with consideration for manufacturing offshoot variants, which include:
- Renault Char-6A Bruyere: Standard (base) vehicle.
- Renault Char-6B Bruyere: Otherwise standard Char-6A fitted with a 105mm/L17 howitzer in a turret (the same as the CDA-6 assault gun).
- Renault AMR-6 Bruyere: Otherwise standard Char-6A fitted out for reconnaissance duties. Some side and rear armour is removed for a marginal increase in speed. Easily confused with a regular Char-6A.
- Renault CDA-6 Sorbier: An assault gun equipped with a 105mm/L17 gun in a casemate.
- Renault CA-6A, B Lauriston: A self-propelled gun equipped with a 75mm howitzer (CA-6A) or a 105mm howitzer (CA-6B).
- Renault CDC-6 Lariboisiere: A tank destroyer equipped with a 75mm/L53 AT gun in a casemate.
- Renault VBG-6A, B Bertrand: An armoured engineering vehicle with a dozer blade, digger, and 80mm demolition gun (VBG-6A), or a winch and crane for vehicle recovery (VBG-6B).
- Renault PP-6 Bertrand: An armoured engineering vehicle equipped with a single-piece seven-meter bridge with a weight limit of 20 tons.
- Renault VD-6A, B Bertrand: An armoured engineering vehicle (similar to the VBG-6A) equipped with a mine-flail (VD-6A) or mine rollers (VD-6B).
- Renault DCA-6 Tornade: An anti-aircraft tank equipped with two 25mm or one 40mm gun.
- Renault VBE-6: A training tank version. No gun is provided and the armour, maintained for reasons of weight simulation, is made of softer metals not designed to stop projectiles.

[SIZE=3]AMX / SOMUA Char-8 Montbrun (SOMUA Montbrun Medium Tank)[/SIZE]
A thirty-three ton medium tank designed according to the "Heavy Cruiser Tank" principles. This tank is designed to have the best mix possible of high mobility, good armour, and good protection, and is intended to be the primary vehicle of the French tank arm for the early 1940s. It is equipped with a 75mm gun. As the choice for the main French tank, it has a number of variants, which include:
- AMX / SOMUA Char-8A Montbrun: Standard (base) vehicle.
- AMX / SOMUA Char-8B Montbrun: Otherwise standard vehicle equipped with a 105mm howitzer in modified turret.
- AMX / SOMUA Char-8C Montbrun: Otherwise standard Char-8B tank with flamethrower substituted for 20mm gun. Intended as an "assault tank".
- AMX / SOMUA Char-8D Montbrun: Otherwise standard Char-8A tank equipped with extra radios as a command tank.
- AMX / SOMUA CDC-8 Druout: Tank destroyer equipped with a 90mm/L40 anti-tank gun in a casemate. Preceding the Char-8A into service.
- AMX / SOMUA CDA-8A, B Chasseloup: Assault gun based on the Druout hull, equipped with a 105mm howitzer (CDA-6A) or a 155mm heavy mortar (CDA-6B) in a casemate.
- AMX / SOMUA CA-8A, B, C, D Gribeauval: Self-propelled gun equipped with a 75mm howitzer (CA-8A), a 105mm howitzer (CA-6B), a 155mm howitzer (CA-8C), or a 200mm howitzer (CA-8D). The CA-6B Gribeauval is expected to be the primary model. The CA-8D, unlike the other variants, does not have a closed compartment for the gun or the crew, and does not carry onboard ammo.
- AMX / SOMUA VBG-8A, B Marescot: An armoured engineering vehicle with a dozer blade, digger, and 100mm demolition gun (VBG-8A), or a winch and crane for vehicle recovery (VBG-8B).
- AMX / SOMUA PP-8 Marescot: An armoured engineering vehicle equipped with a scissors-style ten-meter bridge with a weight limit of 36 tons. (Under development for 1943 or 1944.)
- AMX / SOMUA VD-8A, B Marescot: An armoured engineering vehicle (similar to the VBG-8A) equipped with a mine-flail (VD-8A) or mine rollers (VD-8B).
- AMX / SOMUA DCA-8 Cyclone: An anti-aircraft tank equipped with two 25mm or two 40mm guns.
- AMX / SOMUA VBA-8A, B Boeufs: Auxiliary vehicle adopted as cargo vehicle for the CA-8D self-propelled gun (VBA-8A), and as a bridge carrier (VBA-8B).

Note: All French tanks previously manufactured will either be phased out or rebuilt as the above vehicles enter service, although this process is expected to last several years.