WesWorld

[SIZE=3]Armee de l’Aire and Aeronavale Specifications for 1941[/SIZE]

- C.1/41: Specification for a single-engine single-seat fighter aircraft with a speed of 650kph or better. Contenders are the Dewoitine D.525 Bourrasque, the Morane-Saulnier MS.440, and the Bloch MB.157.
- C.2/41: Specification for a twin-engine day and night fighter (bomber destroyer) with a speed of 600kph or better. No French contenders are currently capable of meeting specifications.
- T.3/41: Specification for a twin-engine or four-engine transport capable of carrying 15 tons of cargo or forty paratroopers, with a specified range of 2,500 km.
- E.4/41: Specification for a single-engine advanced training aircraft. Winner is the Morane-Saulnier MS.470 Vanneau.
- C.5/41: Specification for a single-engine, single-seat carrier-based fighter with a speed of 650kph or better. Winner is the Bloch MB.1050 Milan.
- B.6/41: Specification for a single-engine carrier-based torpedo and dive bomber with a payload of 900kg bombs or torpedoes, and a range of 2,000km. Winners are the Latécoère Late-550 Épaulard (torpedo bomber) and Breguet Br.890 Épaulard (dive bomber).

C = Avion de Chasse (fighter plane, includes Chasseur-bombardier, Chasseur nocturne, and Intercepteur)
E = Avion d'entraînement (training plane)
B = Avions d’bombardier (bomber aircraft)
BI = Avions d’bombardier-torpilleur (torpedo bomber)
AS = Avion d'attaque au sol (ground attack plane)
T = Avion de transport (transport plane)
PM = Avion de patrouille maritime (maritime patrol)
R = Avions de reconnaissance (reconnaissance)

[SIZE=4]Dewoitine D.525C.1 Bourrasque[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1]Introduced 1941[/SIZE]

[SIZE=3]General characteristics[/SIZE]
Crew: 1
Length: 9.6 m (32 ft 5 in)
Wingspan: 10.5 m (34 ft 5 in)
Height: 2.57 m (8 ft 5 in)
Wing area: 17.65 m² (190 ft²)
Empty weight: 2,550 kg (5,621 lb)
Loaded weight: 3,400 kg (7,495 lb)
Powerplant: 1× Hispano-Suiza 12Z liquid-cooled V12 engine with two-stage Turbomeca supercharger, 1,650hp

[SIZE=3]Performance[/SIZE]
Maximum speed: 657.5 km/h (355 kn, 408.5 mph)
Range: 1,500 km ( nmi, mi)
Service ceiling: 11,500 m (37,730 ft)
Rate of climb: 20.8 m/s (4,100 ft/min)

[SIZE=3]Armament[/SIZE]
- 4 × 20 mm Hispano-Suiza HS.404 (60-rounds) cannon

[SIZE=4]Morane-Saulnier MS.450 / Doflug D-3803[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]General characteristics[/SIZE]
Wingspan: 10.02m (32ft 10 1/2in)
Length: 9.32m (30ft 7in)
Height: 3.33m (10ft 11in)
Wing Area: 17.58m2 (190.4 sq. ft)
Empty weight: 2945kg (6,493lb)
Max Takeoff Weight: 3905kg (8,609lb)
Engine: 1 × Hispano-Suiza 12Z liquid-cooled V12 engine with two-stage Turbomeca supercharger, 1,650hp
Crew:
Armour:

[SIZE=3]Performance[/SIZE]
Max speed: 422mph (680km/h)
Range: 650km (404 miles)
Service ceiling: 12,000m (39,370ft)
Rate of climb:

[SIZE=3]Armament[/SIZE]
- 1 × 20 mm HS.404 motorcannon
- 2 × 20 mm HS.404 cannons in wings

[SIZE=3]Production History[/SIZE]
Under joint development by Doflug (Swiss) with extensive involvement by Morane-Saulnier. Specifications as per OTL, but with a HS12Z substituted for the tweaked 1,250hp Sarrer YS-2. Prototype flies in autumn 1941.

Quoted

- C.2/41: Specification for a twin-engine day and night fighter (bomber destroyer) with a speed of 600kph or better. No French contenders are currently capable of meeting specifications.

Is this, in effect, a request for proposals directed to potential foreign suppliers?

Quoted

- T.3/41: Specification for a twin-engine or four-engine transport capable of carrying 15 tons of cargo or forty paratroopers, with a specified range of 2,500 km.

15 tons of cargo? that is five times that of the C-47, and only 40 paratroops?

[SIZE=4]Bloch MB.1050 Milan ("Kite") carrier fighter[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1]Preproduction Aircraft[/SIZE]

[SIZE=3]Specifications[/SIZE]
Wingspan: 12.0m (39.4 feet)
Length: 10.4m (34 feet)
Height: 4.5m (14.8 feet)
Wing Area: 27.5 m² (296 ft²)
Empty Weight: 3,698.5 kg (8,154 lbs)
Loaded Weight: 5,034 kg (11099 lbs)
Max Takeoff Weight: 6,431.5 kg (14,181 lbs)
Engine: 1 × Gnome-Rhone Mistral Titan 18k (1,850hp / 1,379.5 kW takeoff)
Crew: 1 (pilot)

[SIZE=3]Performance[/SIZE]
Max speed: 650 kph (403.9 mph)
Cruising speed: 563 kph (350 mph)
Combat Range: 1,327 km (825 miles)
Service ceiling: 10,900 m (35,800 ft)
Rate of climb: 15.9 mps (3129.6 fpm)



[SIZE=4]Bloch MB.1050 Milan ("Kite") carrier fighter[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1]Production Aircraft[/SIZE]

[SIZE=3]Specifications[/SIZE]
Wingspan: 12.0m (39.4 feet)
Length: 10.4m (34 feet)
Height: 4.5m (14.8 feet)
Wing Area: 27.5 m² (296 ft²)
Empty Weight: 3,698.5 kg (8,154 lbs)
Loaded Weight: 5,034 kg (11099 lbs)
Max Takeoff Weight: 6,431.5 kg (14,181 lbs)
Engine: 1 × Gnome-Rhone Mistral Titan 18k (2,240hp / 1,670.4 kW takeoff) with Turbomeca two-stage supercharger
Crew: 1 (pilot)

[SIZE=3]Performance[/SIZE]
Max speed: 685 kph (370 knots / 425.6 mph)
Cruising speed: 563 kph (350 mph)
Combat Range: 1,327 km (825 miles)
Service ceiling: 10,900 m (35,800 ft)
Rate of climb: 15.9 mps (3129.6 fpm)
Wing Loading: 183 kg/m² (37.5 lb/ft²)
Power to Weight Ratio: 0.332 kW/kg (0.202 hp/lb)

[SIZE=3]Armament[/SIZE]
- 4 × 20 mm cannon in wings with 925 rounds
- 2 × 750lb (340 kg) bombs

[SIZE=3]Notes[/SIZE]
Regarding appearance, imagine a mashup of the F6F Hellcat, the Sea Fury, and a Bloch MB.155 (latter pictured below, not my artwork):

Quoted

[SIZE=4]Breguet Br.890 Épaulard ("Killer Whale") dive bomber[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Specifications[/SIZE]
Wingspan: 14.5 m (47.6 feet)
Length: 13.7 m (44.9 feet)
Height: 4.85 m (15.9 feet)
Wing Area: 38 m² (409 ft²)
Empty weight: 5,000 kg (11,023 lbs)
Max Takeoff Weight: 7,950 kg (17,527 lbs)
Engine: 1 × Gnome-Rhone Mistral Titan 18k (2,240hp takeoff)
Crew: 2-3 (pilot, turret gunner and radioman/bombardier)

[SIZE=3]Performance[/SIZE]
Max speed: 475 kph (295.15 mph)
Cruise speed: 325 kph (201.9 mph)
Range: 2,053.5 km (1,276 miles)
Service ceiling: 8,575 m (28,133 ft)
Rate of climb: 8.75 mps (17.22 fpm)

[SIZE=3]Armament[/SIZE]
- 2 × 0.50 mm MGs in turret
- 2 × 0.50 mm MGs in wings (deleted in later models)
- 1 × 900kg (1,984 lb) bombs

Quoted

[SIZE=4]Latécoère Late-550 Épaulard ("Killer Whale") torpedo bomber[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Specifications[/SIZE]
Wingspan: 14.5 m (47.6 feet)
Length: 13.2 m (43.3 feet)
Height: 4.85 m (15.9 feet)
Wing Area: 38 m² (409 ft²)
Empty weight: 4,950 kg (10,913 lbs)
Max Takeoff Weight: 7,950 kg (17,527 lbs)
Engine: 1 × Gnome-Rhone Mistral Titan 18k (2,240hp takeoff)
Crew: 2-3 (pilot, turret gunner and radioman/bombardier)

[SIZE=3]Performance[/SIZE]
Max speed: 475 kph (295.15 mph)
Cruise speed: 325 kph (201.9 mph)
Range: 2,053.5 km (1,276 miles)
Service ceiling: 8,575 m (28,133 ft)
Rate of climb: 8.75 mps (17.22 fpm)

[SIZE=3]Armament[/SIZE]
- 2 × 0.50 mm MGs in turret
- 2 × 0.50 mm MGs in wings (deleted in later models)
- 1 × 900kg (1,984 lb) bombs or torpedoes

[SIZE=3]Notes[/SIZE]
Breguet dive-bomber/scout bomber variant has a "tail stinger" with drogue dive-brakes and a lengthened nose for improved balance; Latécoère torpedo bomber has streamlined belly bay for torpedo carriage.

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan

Quoted

- C.2/41: Specification for a twin-engine day and night fighter (bomber destroyer) with a speed of 600kph or better. No French contenders are currently capable of meeting specifications.

Is this, in effect, a request for proposals directed to potential foreign suppliers?

Yes, although I have some options if the planes proposed don't interest me.

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan

Quoted

- T.3/41: Specification for a twin-engine or four-engine transport capable of carrying 15 tons of cargo or forty paratroopers, with a specified range of 2,500 km.

15 tons of cargo? that is five times that of the C-47, and only 40 paratroops?

The specification for cargo is optimistic and probably will be dropped; the requirement for paratroopers is driving the specification. The French are willing to entertain a foreign-built/designed plane as a backup, but really want a French-built aircraft to fill this spec. (Nord is working on an aircraft (which is not the historical Noratlas) which will meet all the points of the spec except weight, but it won't be ready until 1942.)

Radial-engined version.


Inline-engined version.

[SIZE=3]Morane-Saulnier M.S.470 Vanneau ("Plover") trainer aircraft[/SIZE]

Statistics
- Crew: 2 (trainee pilot + instructor)
- Length: 9.05 m (30 ft 8 in)
- Wingspan: 10.65 m (35 ft 11 in)
- Height: 3.62 m (12 ft 11 in)
- Wing area: 17.30 m² (186.22 ft²)
- Empty weight: 2,351 kg (5,183 lb)
- Max Takeoff Weight: 3,125 kg (6,889 lb)
- Powerplant: 1× Gnome-Rhone 14M radial (522kW / 700HP)
- Armament: 2x.30cal MG (wings) for target training, 5lb or 10lb underwing smoke bombs for training

Performance
- Maximum speed: 445 km/h (277 mph)
- Max Range: 1500 km (932 miles)
- Service ceiling: 8500 m (27,900 ft)
- Rate of climb: Not available

Armamant
- 2 x MAC 1934 7.5mm wing-mounted machine-guns
- Light bombs

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan

Quoted

- C.2/41: Specification for a twin-engine day and night fighter (bomber destroyer) with a speed of 600kph or better. No French contenders are currently capable of meeting specifications.

Is this, in effect, a request for proposals directed to potential foreign suppliers?

Yes, although I have some options if the planes proposed don't interest me.

Well, on that basis, Germany will offer the Heinkel He219 design, which is still in its preliminary design phase. The preliminary data for the project are:

Engines: Two 1,900 hp Daimler Benz DB603G twelve-cylinder inverted Vee engines

Armament: Two cannon of 20mm or 30mm calibre in wing roots, four cannon of 20mm or 30mm in ventral tray; proposal for two cannon of 20mm or 30mm firing obliquely upward. Potential for external stores up to 2,000 kg in day attack configuration.

Span 18.5 metres; length 15.3 metres; height 4.1 metres; wing area 44.5 square metres

Empty weight 11,200 kg; loaded weight 15,300 kg

Maximum speed at 7,000 metres 670 kph; normal range 1,545 kilometres; maximum range 2,000 kilometres.

Licensed construction or joint development/co-production could be discussed if interest warrants.

[SIZE=4]Caudron C.710 Cyclone[/SIZE]
Single-engine high-wing observation plane built for rough-field operation. {This is absolutely positively NOT related in any way to the historical C.710 Cyclone, which is a completely different design and indeed type of aircraft, and is not built in Wesworld France.}

[SIZE=3]Specifications[/SIZE]
Crew: 2 (pilot, observer-gunner)
Length: 33 ft (10.06 m)
Wingspan: 43.6 ft (13.3 m)
Height: 13.8 ft (4.2 m)
Wing area: 271.25 ft² (25.2 m²)
Empty weight: 5,092.7 lb (2310 kg)
Normal weight: 6,305 lb (2860 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 6,966.6 lb (3160 kg)
Powerplant: 1 × nine-cylinder Gnome-Rhone 9M radial, 825 hp; or Renault radial engine

[SIZE=3]Performance[/SIZE]
Maximum speed: 170.9mph / 275 kph @ sea level, 205mph / 330 kph @ 3000m
Range: 385 mi (620 km)
Fuel Capacity: Two 460 liter tanks
Service ceiling: 20,000 ft (6,096 m)
Climb: 6 minutes to 3,000m (approx. 8 meters per second)

[SIZE=3]Armament[/SIZE]
- 2 × 7.5 mm MAC 1931 with 600 rounds in the nose of the aircraft
- 2 × 7.5 mm MAC 1931 with 525 rounds per drum
- 2 × 100kg bombs, 4x50kg bombs, or 6x25kg bombs (six mounting points)

A not-OTL design for a seaplane to operate from the French Navy's cruisers and battleships.

Quoted

[SIZE=4]Lioré-et-Olivier LeO 400 scout-observation seaplane[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Specifications[/SIZE]
Wingspan: 12.65m (41.5 feet)
Length: 10.915m (35.8 feet)
Height: 5.1m (16.8 feet)
Wing Area: 27.5 m² (296 ft²)
Empty weight: 2,905.5 kg (6,394 lbs)
Max Takeoff Weight: 4,317.5 kg (9,498.5 lbs)
Engine: 1 × Gnome-Rhone 14M (1325hp takeoff)
Crew: 2 (pilot, gunner-observer)

[SIZE=3]Performance[/SIZE]
Max speed: 471.5 kph (292.8 mph)
Cruising speed: 210 kph (130.4 mph)
Maximum Range: 1,765 km (1,096 miles)
Service ceiling: 10,700 m (35,096 ft)

[SIZE=3]Armament[/SIZE]
- 2 × 7.5 mm MAC 1931 with 600 rounds in the nose of the aircraft
- 2 × 7.5 mm MAC 1931 with 525 rounds per drum
- 2 × 100kg bombs, 4x50kg bombs, or 6x25kg bombs (six mounting points)

There are several aspects of this design that I consider optimistic.

The first is the service ceiling, which is quite high for an aircraft of this time.

The second is the speed of the aircraft, given the engine output. The OTL Kawanishi NiK1 Kyofu single-engine seaplane interceptor, one of the fastest aircraft of its type, achieved only 302mph on an engine output of 1,460 hp, and its weight was only 8,183 pounds. This design is larger, heavier and has less available horsepower, but only a slightly lower speed.

It's 'combat range' seems quite large as well, it is carrying a large fuel load, which has its own issues. Now, if this was seen as 'maximum range' it would be much more in line with contemporary aircraft.

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
It's 'combat range' seems quite large as well, it is carrying a large fuel load, which has its own issues. Now, if this was seen as 'maximum range' it would be much more in line with contemporary aircraft.

Ah, I used my template and forgot to change that. Yes, it's max range, not combat range.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
It's 'combat range' seems quite large as well, it is carrying a large fuel load, which has its own issues. Now, if this was seen as 'maximum range' it would be much more in line with contemporary aircraft.

Ah, I used my template and forgot to change that. Yes, it's max range, not combat range.

There are still the other parameters to consider. All in all I doubt that the aircraft could achieve the stated performance with the engine output specified, given all other parameters as stated. One or more parameters would have to be adjusted to bring it into balance.

Quoted

[SIZE=4]Lioré-et-Olivier LeO 400 scout-observation seaplane[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Specifications[/SIZE]
Wingspan: 12.65m (41.5 feet)
Length: 10.915m (35.8 feet)
Height: 5.1m (16.8 feet)
Wing Area: 27.5 m² (296 ft²)
Empty weight: 2,905.5 kg (6,394 lbs)
Max Takeoff Weight: 4,317.5 kg (9,498.5 lbs)
Engine: 1 × Gnome-Rhone 14R (1590hp takeoff)
Crew: 2 (pilot, gunner-observer)

[SIZE=3]Performance[/SIZE]
Max speed: 471.5 kph (292.8 mph)
Cruising speed: 210 kph (130.4 mph)
Maximum Range: 1,765 km (1,096 miles)
Service ceiling: 10,700 m (35,096 ft)

[SIZE=3]Armament[/SIZE]
- 2 × 7.5 mm MAC 1931 with 600 rounds in the nose of the aircraft
- 2 × 7.5 mm MAC 1931 with 525 rounds per drum
- 2 × 100kg bombs, 4x50kg bombs, or 6x25kg bombs (six mounting points)

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

[SIZE=4]Lioré-et-Olivier LeO 400 scout-observation seaplane[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Specifications[/SIZE]
Wingspan: 12.65m (41.5 feet)
Length: 10.915m (35.8 feet)
Height: 5.1m (16.8 feet)
Wing Area: 27.5 m² (296 ft²)
Empty weight: 2,905.5 kg (6,394 lbs)
Max Takeoff Weight: 4,317.5 kg (9,498.5 lbs)
Engine: 1 × Gnome-Rhone 14R (1590hp takeoff)
Crew: 2 (pilot, gunner-observer)

[SIZE=3]Performance[/SIZE]
Max speed: 471.5 kph (292.8 mph)
Cruising speed: 210 kph (130.4 mph)
Maximum Range: 1,765 km (1,096 miles)
Service ceiling: 10,700 m (35,096 ft)

[SIZE=3]Armament[/SIZE]
- 2 × 7.5 mm MAC 1931 with 600 rounds in the nose of the aircraft
- 2 × 7.5 mm MAC 1931 with 525 rounds per drum
- 2 × 100kg bombs, 4x50kg bombs, or 6x25kg bombs (six mounting points)

Given an engine of greater horsepower, the other design and performance parameters fall into what I would consider an expected range.

Looks good to me too.
Nice to see the seaplane isn't dead yet!

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan

Quoted

- C.2/41: Specification for a twin-engine day and night fighter (bomber destroyer) with a speed of 600kph or better. No French contenders are currently capable of meeting specifications.

Is this, in effect, a request for proposals directed to potential foreign suppliers?

Yes, although I have some options if the planes proposed don't interest me.

Don't the Dutch D-XXIII and German FW-187 already exceed that speed and qualify for this category? I'd think the speed mark would be pushed up as a result

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
Don't the Dutch D-XXIII and German FW-187 already exceed that speed and qualify for this category? I'd think the speed mark would be pushed up as a result

The only D.XXIII I'm aware of has a max speed of 320mph or thereabouts (although I'm rather unfamiliar with that design), and I think the Fw187 is under 340mph.

Yeah but the French aren't likely to buy a German design...

These are the days when nations took pride in their own industries efforts and there is no doubt that French manufacturers could produce a fighter to match this spec.