WesWorld

The Argentine Air Force has a requirement for 24 transport aircraft.

The main specifications are;
It must carry 12-18 parachute troops or 16-24 seated troops or 10-16 VIPs
It must be rugged and easy to maintain with god access to engines and wing compartments. Must be easy to repair in remote locations and must have good rugged undercarriage to cope with rough fields, snow and dust. Ski attachments for Antarctic supply missions also will be required.
It must have field take-off and landing and operation with performance to equal or suprass the current Ju-52 fleet now in use.
It must have two or more engines, four engines will be looked at but may be discounted if overall airframe size is excessive
High altitude performance would be desirable
Range fully loaded 750-1,000 miles, 500 is minimum acceptavble fully loaded
It must have full cargo loading facilities such as tie-points etc and must have a side cargo door and/or parachuting door.
Racks for dropping small payloads (not bombs) must be provided
Self defence in the form of one or more MGs is desired, turrets not a neccessity if good field of fire from manual positions possible. Armament will be installed in Argentina and will be 7.62mm calibre but 13mm is a posibility. Dorsal positions more important than ventral or even nose positions.
Must have good flight charactristics on one engine for emergencies.
Tow attachement of gliders not essential for first batch but may be a requirement for retro-fit later on.
Flight crew of 3-4 desired (pilot, co-pilot, radio operator and navigator (not essential)
Delivery to begin in mid 1941.

Easy-peasy. Looks like Argentina just wrote out the specs of the Constelación T1C Twin Condor.

Notes:
- 1. It must have field take-off and landing and operation with performance to equal or suprass the current Ju-52 fleet now in use: the Twin Condor is idealized for short-field takeoff and landings. It is one of the first aircraft equipped with Fowler flaps (Constelación employed Mr. Fowler as a consultant during the Serie-300 design process), which help increase the plane's short takeoff characteristics.
- 2. It must be rugged and easy to maintain with god access to engines and wing compartments. Must be easy to repair in remote locations and must have good rugged undercarriage to cope with rough fields, snow and dust. Ski attachments for Antarctic supply missions also will be required. The Twin Condor is used by the Antarctic Research Consortium (ARC) to supply research camps in Antarctica; it is used to transport vital supplies and personnel, and has been used for the rescue of at least two Antarctic exploration teams from unprepared landing strips on the Antarctic ice. The Twin Condor has also been used in the Atacama desert, the Bolivian Altiplano, and the Andes. Constelación is fully willing to prove the Twin Condor's ruggedness by flying Argentine observers from the Bolivian Altiplano to Tierra del Fuego using only unprepared landing fields.
- 3. It must carry 12-18 parachute troops or 16-24 seated troops or 10-16 VIPs: The Twin Condor currently serves both of these roles for the Chilean military, and has twice been involved in combat paratrooper operations during the 1937 conflict. A float-equipped Twin Condor serves as the backup Presidential airplane for the Chilean government.
- 4. It must have full cargo loading facilities such as tie-points etc and must have a side cargo door and/or parachuting door: The Twin Condor has a side cargo door which can be opened and closed in-flight, and has multiple arrangements for both seating and cargo-carrying roles.
- 5. Range fully loaded 750-1,000 miles, 500 is minimum acceptavble fully loaded: Current range loaded with the standard engines is 700 miles, but the planned Serie-400 changes will raise this.
- 6. Flight crew of 3-4 desired (pilot, co-pilot, radio operator and navigator (not essential): The Twin Condor can be operated in emergencies by one pilot. Current configurations usually are idealized for a pilot and copilot. A position for a radio-operator/navigator could be added upon request.

Quoted

[SIZE=4]T1C Constelación Twin Condor Utility Aircraft[/SIZE]
The Condor is a twin-engined, high-winged aircraft designed for use off extremely short or rough airfields, and in all weather conditions. The aircraft, nicknamed "TwinCon" or "Condorito", has a short take-off and landing roll. In the short time since its introduction, the Condor has become one of the most successful planes ever built in Chile, receiving orders from LAN, Fuerza Aérea de Chile, the Chilean Department of Geosurvey, and numerous other small aircraft operators.

[SIZE=3]Specifications:[/SIZE]
- Crew: 1-2
- Passengers: 18
- Length: 47 feet
- Wingspan: 59 feet
- Height: 16 feet
- Wing area: 410 ft²
- Empty weight: 5,520 pounds
- Loaded weight: 10,000 pounds
- Powerplant: 2x Gipsy Six (200hp), or Canadian Orenda engines

[SIZE=3]Performance:[/SIZE]
- Maximum speed: 150 knots (172mph)
- Max Range: 700 nautical miles (engine dependent)
- Service ceiling: 18,000 feet
- Rate of climb: 7 ft/s (2.13 m/s)

[SIZE=3]Production History:[/SIZE]
- Serie-100 (1936): Current production
- Serie-200 (1937): Current production
- Serie-300 (1940): New Fowler flaps, improved fuselage, new flight controls
- Serie-400 (1942): All-metal fuselage, new engines

[SIZE=3]Notes:[/SIZE]
N/A

Constelación is currently in the process of preparing the Serie-400 upgrades to the Twin Condor. The Serie-400 will debut in April or May of 1942 and will feature all-metal construction and all-new engines: Constelación hopes to use the 650hp Austral Malacara-A2, and estimates the new engines should raise top speed, improve STOL performance with cargo, and substantially increase the effective service ceiling.

OOC: The Austral Malacara-A2 engines really won't be ready before mid to late 1942, if then. Constelación can get an intermediate variant of the Serie-400 into production by mid-1941 - we'll call it the Serie-350 - which uses alternate engines - say the DH Gipsy Twelve or the Argus As410.

Quoted

[SIZE=4]Constelación Twin Condor, Serie-350/400 Utility Aircraft[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Specifications:[/SIZE]
- Crew: 2+
- Passengers: 18+
- Length: 50 feet
- Wingspan: 62 feet
- Height: 17.5 feet
- Wing area: 415 ft²
- Empty weight: 6,000 pounds
- Loaded weight: 11,000 pounds
- Powerplant: 400-600hp radials or inlines as desired (Serie-350); 2x Austral Malacara-A2 (650hp) turboprops (for Serie-400)

[SIZE=3]Performance:[/SIZE]
- Maximum speed: 165 knots (190mph)
- Max Range: 900 miles
- Service ceiling: 7,500 meters / 24,600 feet
- Rate of climb: 7.5 ft/s (2.29 m/s)

The Savoia-Marchetti SM.82 would seem to nicely fit those specs. It exceeds most of the specs, but might be rather larger than Argentina needs. However, with the deep fuselage and large belly door, it is easy to convey large loads (such as aircraft or tanks) that would give much greater flexibility. The aircraft is of simple construction and easy to repair with the mixed construction.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
- Powerplant: 400-600hp radials or inlines as desired (Serie-350); 2x Austral Malacara-A2 (650hp) turboprops (for Serie-400)

Any particular reason for turboprops? They won't be particularly reliable, won't give much weight saving over piston engines, and have atrocious fuel consumption. Unless you have a real desire to cut down on vibrations, I don't see the point, especially for such a small power unit.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
The Savoia-Marchetti SM.82 would seem to nicely fit those specs. It exceeds most of the specs, but might be rather larger than Argentina needs. However, with the deep fuselage and large belly door, it is easy to convey large loads (such as aircraft or tanks) that would give much greater flexibility. The aircraft is of simple construction and easy to repair with the mixed construction.

Are these specs posted somewhere? I've looked and cannot find them. I'm guessing that the design is not the OTL SM.82, and it sounds intriquing.

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
Are these specs posted somewhere? I've looked and cannot find them. I'm guessing that the design is not the OTL SM.82, and it sounds intriquing.

No, it really is the historical SM.82. The wikipedia article isn't actually too bad (most of the Italian WWII aircraft ones are quite good). I'll point you towards some other things later on when I'm back. I have a nice shot of a CR.42 inside an SM.82.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
Are these specs posted somewhere? I've looked and cannot find them. I'm guessing that the design is not the OTL SM.82, and it sounds intriquing.

No, it really is the historical SM.82. The wikipedia article isn't actually too bad (most of the Italian WWII aircraft ones are quite good). I'll point you towards some other things later on when I'm back. I have a nice shot of a CR.42 inside an SM.82.

Thank you for the pointer. I did not think the SM.82 had a ventral cargo door.

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
Thank you for the pointer. I did not think the SM.82 had a ventral cargo door.

I'm pretty sure the loading procedure was from the front, rather than jacking the aircraft up from the rear. It's a two deck aircraft with a large ventral door and old for some cargo, and then a removeable floor to the second storey if oversize loads need to be carried. It's an interesting arrangement that seemed to work fairly well in practice.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
Thank you for the pointer. I did not think the SM.82 had a ventral cargo door.

I'm pretty sure the loading procedure was from the front, rather than jacking the aircraft up from the rear. It's a two deck aircraft with a large ventral door and old for some cargo, and then a removeable floor to the second storey if oversize loads need to be carried. It's an interesting arrangement that seemed to work fairly well in practice.

Winching cargo up through the bomb-bay does work, though not overly efficient.

There are rather limited options for a tri-motor. A side door limits the size of cargo that can be carried. A rear ramp only works if you jack up the rear of the aircraft, or move to a tricycle undercarriage - with consequent reduction in rough fiedl performance.

Argentina is interested in both types. There are problems with both types however but we'll discuss those later.

The contest remains open to see if there are any more takers.

Argentina could order more Ju-52s if it wished but it wants a newer aircraft and it wants the best.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
Argentina is interested in both types. There are problems with both types however but we'll discuss those later.

The contest remains open to see if there are any more takers.

Argentina could order more Ju-52s if it wished but it wants a newer aircraft and it wants the best.

While Germany could easily supply additional Ju52s quite readily, it is out of cycle with its new transport types. The Ju152 has run into performance problems, the Bv144 hasn't been developed to meet military specifications and, which it could, doing to to meet the Argentine timeframe is doubtful. The Arado 232 is not likely to appear until late 1941.

After further consultation with the client, Constellacion will offer the new Serie-400. The previously-posted Serie-400 will be held for 1944 as the Serie-425.

Quoted

[SIZE=4]Constelación Twin Condor, Serie-400 Utility Aircraft[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Specifications:[/SIZE]
- Crew: 2+
- Passengers: 20
- Length: 52 feet
- Wingspan: 65 feet
- Height: 17.5 feet
- Wing area: 422 ft²
- Empty weight: 6,500 pounds
- Loaded weight: 11,750 pounds
- Powerplant: 2 × 715hp FMA RR-14-2-B radials

[SIZE=3]Performance:[/SIZE]
- Maximum speed: 180 knots (207 mph / 333 kph)
- Max Range: 900 miles
- Service ceiling: 7,500 meters / 24,600 feet
- Rate of climb: 7.5 ft/s (2.29 m/s)

[SIZE=3]Armament (Optional):[/SIZE]
- 1 × .30cal or .50cal machine gun in dorsal hatch

Mexico can offer the Azcarte T-5. Meets all the requirements except for the rugged/easy to maintain.


Note based on OTL DC-5:





General characteristics

Crew: six
Capacity: 16-22 passengers
Length: 62 ft 6 in (19.05 m)
Wingspan: 78 ft (23.77 m)
Height: 19 ft (6.05 m)
Wing area: 824 ft² (76.55 m²)
Empty weight: 13,680 lb (6,202 kg)
Loaded weight: 20,000 lb (9,072 kg)
Powerplant: 2× Wright GR-1820-F62 Cyclone radials, 850 hp (635 kW) each

Performance

Maximum speed: 227 mph (325 km/h)
Range: 1,600 mi (2,575 km)
Service ceiling 23,700 ft (7,225 m)

The Instituto Aerotechico (Technical Research and Development) sends a request for one example each of the Constelación T1C Twin Condor and the Savoia-Marchetti SM.82 for evaluation. The aircraft should be normal production types, on loan for the duration of the trials which will begin in November 1940. Each manufacturer is expected to cover transportation costs but the FAA will pay for all fuel during the trials and the costs of any repairs. The trials will last 5 weeks and will cover many climatic changes and harsh field use.
We of course understand that the current Constelación Twin Condor is not the Serie-400 but it hoped that the overall attributes of the type can be gleaned and that any faults found could be rectified before prototype construction begins.

The Azcarte T-5 is doubtless a good load-carrier but seems more suited to airline work and the low ground clearance forces a rejection of this aircraft. The Junkers 152 is rejected due to its engine problems and the Ju-52 is not at this time under consideration unless any of the aircraft in the trial prove to be unsuccessful.