WesWorld

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Originally posted by Desertfox

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Prestige is not a valid enough reason for Mexico to spend a large portion of its budget developing a technology that ingame would be questionable if it was going to work or not. We in 2010 know jets will work, is it that obvious in 1940?

Which is why I wanted pulsejets. We know that they don't work, but that would not have been apparent in 1940. So Mexico would be trying to leapfrog everyone else with a technology that would not pan out. I was deliberately trying to go down the wrong path.

I have no real objections to you choosing for Mexico "the wrong path". What I do object to is Mexico developing "the wrong path" even before the historical developers, who put a lot of money into getting it even as soon as they did. I told you when we first discussed this on IRC that I will not prevent you from developing pulsejets, but I would not accept it being done in advance of OTL. ShinRa, Wes and I made this point extremely clear and you have chosen to press gung-ho forward in defiance of moderator warnings.

I'm still on the road, so I'm not available for further comment until later.

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Originally posted by Desertfox
Very reasonable when Argentina fields the I-02 and Chile the Alicantos, not to mention Canada's multiple advanced Brunelli designs.

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Originally posted by TheCanadian

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Didn't your plane win at the last Talons? The Alicanto is a VERY advanced carrier-borne torpedo bomber. FMA has a lot more designs that TNCA, and Brazil is developing a P-47 offshoot.

You know something Foxy? You weaken your arguement when you point out what others are doing. Now I wasn't going to join this little session, but seeing as you dragged me into it.......

First, I will let Brock and James defend their own planes...

I should probably go back and touch on this.

The Alicanto is admittedly an advanced plane, especially for Chile to develop - which is why ENAER wasn't able to do it successfully alone. The Alicanto was first scribbled up during the tensions before the Peruvian Civil War, and received funding as a result of that war. In late 1937, when the war ended, ENAER determined that they did not have the expertise to bring the plane into existence, and so they formed a partnership with Accrisius. The way it worked out is that Accrisius received full licensing to market the plane (as the Accrisius Avenger) to the Atlantean armed forces in exchange for extensive design assistance (most of which occurred in Atlantis, not Chile). Had I not made the agreement with Wes for the Accrisius partnership, the Alicanto probably would have become a never-was aircraft: frankly, it's an aberration for the sort of planes I want Chile to develop.

While I won't speak for Hood, I will note that the same case (extensive Atlantean assistance) applies for the I-02 - with the additional bonus that Argentina fought a pretty major war recently, with the technological push and firsthand experience that involved. In 1940, Argentina has a population roughly equivalent to Mexico, an existing, OTL aircraft industry, a significantly higher historic gross domestic product, and a higher level of education as a result of being more extensively settled by immigrants from the Old World. Argentina is more stable economically and politically, and its economy is more diversified at this point.

Conversely, Mexico has not fought in any recent wars (aside from sending out volunteer groups/mercenaries), has relatively few shared borders with acknowledged or alleged enemies, and still somehow prototypes three or four times as many aircraft designs as Argentina prototypes every year.

Per the original post, Mexico has designed three fighters, four bombers, and two experimental aircraft in 1940 alone. By comparison, Chile's designed only six main types of aircraft in the last five years, those being generally smaller, less sophisticated types, or developed with extensive foreign assistance. Even then, I've felt I need to tone down Chile's aircraft program - and so aside from improving existing types, I do not intend to prototype another major aircraft design until August 1944 (when the ENAER Kodkod flies).

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Originally posted by Brockpaine
Per the original post, Mexico has designed three fighters, four bombers, and two experimental aircraft in 1940 alone.

This would be the main issue I keep coming back to. The effort might be there to do one or two projects, but not handfuls each year. I wouldn't expect the results to be great either when you compare with things like the Saab J22, CAC Boomerang or IAR 80.

I'm following similar lines in Italy. Lots of things produced in OTL are not being built here. Resources are much more focused around a smaller number of projects in order to make them more successful. Design companies are being amalgamated to give stronger design teams for more complex aircraft. It may result in only one fighter or one bomber being built at a time, but that aircraft has much more chance of being a good un.

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Originally posted by Red Admiral

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Originally posted by Brockpaine
Per the original post, Mexico has designed three fighters, four bombers, and two experimental aircraft in 1940 alone.

This would be the main issue I keep coming back to. The effort might be there to do one or two projects, but not handfuls each year.

...

Design companies are being amalgamated to give stronger design teams for more complex aircraft. It may result in only one fighter or one bomber being built at a time, but that aircraft has much more chance of being a good un.

That's pretty much my philosophy as well. So far as I'm concerned, the most important aircraft Chile produces is not the Alicanto, but the Coati trainer and the Condor cargo plane. They're not glamorous roles, but they're highly necessary, and I think they're pretty reasonable planes to design, build, and keep flying in the long term. I'd rather make excellent basic aircraft (like the Coati) than over-reach and make a failed-but-advanced aircraft. (Further, it seems more supportable in peacetime.)

For the national scene in Chile, I decided to make everything character-driven to a certain extent. I've invented a small number of aircraft engineers for Chile, and they each have a particular specialty which drives the sort of designs they propose for the various civilian and military requirements. While they of course have a full design team backing them up, it gives me more of a feel both for the planes I want to design, and the direction I believe I'll eventually take Chilean aviation.

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I have no real objections to you choosing for Mexico "the wrong path". What I do object to is Mexico developing "the wrong path" even before the historical developers, who put a lot of money into getting it even as soon as they did. I told you when we first discussed this on IRC that I will not prevent you from developing pulsejets, but I would not accept it being done in advance of OTL. ShinRa, Wes and I made this point extremely clear and you have chosen to press gung-ho forward in defiance of moderator warnings.

The problem is, if I go down the historical path... by the time Mexico flies a pulsejet powered manned aircraft, Italy will have been flying motorjets for 5 years, Argentina/Atlantis flying rocket aircraft for 5 years (Japan also is flying rockets, unknown how long), Germany will be flying standard jets for 3 years, and GB standard jets for 1 year (maybe 2?). All of these are superior to the pulsejet and aren't exactly complete secrets. Going down the pulsejet path and waiting untill 1942 is no longer a misguided idea, its a stupid idea, and no longer makes sense, unless it is to build tons of V-1s. And then it would be powergaming.

As for the OTL argument, there was a reason it was not done untill 1942 and it is not due to technical reasons. There was no need for them before (and if it wasn't for WWII we might not have seen them at all). The pulsejet was used because it was cheap, easy to manufacture, and required no exotic stuff. It was used for disposable flying bombs. You don't need such stuff in peace, and Germany already had superior jet engines. Take a look at the pulsejet powered manned aircraft projects. All where late war emergency fighters, designed when resources (to build standard jets) where running low. All had inferior performance to their jet equivalent. The single pulsejet powered He162 couldn't even take off under its own power.

What I'm saying is that the reason the pulsejet isn't seen in OTL untill 1942 is because it sucked, not because it was cutting edge, extremely sophisticated technology. And the reason I choose the pulsejet path over the conventional jet, is because it is simpler, cheaper, and easier to manufacture than a conventional jet. The pulsejet is basically a tube with a valve at one end. Because Mexico was not in the same league as the bigger powers I went that way.

Now since you people still do not want me building pulsejets untill 1942. I proposed an alternative option. Mexico wants too leapfrog everyone (note wants too, not will do), and I have written about jet engine research so I propose that Mexico instead of developing a pulsejet works on a conventional jet projects, with first flight of the aircraft in 1941. It is relatively easy to design and build an experimental jet engine, but not a reliable production one. So the Mexican jet program would be limited only to experimental models, with the research being passed of to the US where the US would continue on and be the one to build the reliable production ones. Note also, that Mexico has worked closely in the past with GE's turbocharger program and with Curtiss turbocharger program (turbocharger = jet engine without combustion chamber). So either company would be the one producing the engines and continuing the research.

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Per the original post, Mexico has designed three fighters, four bombers, and two experimental aircraft in 1940 alone. By comparison, Chile's designed only six main types of aircraft in the last five years, those being generally smaller, less sophisticated types, or developed with extensive foreign assistance. Even then, I've felt I need to tone down Chile's aircraft program - and so aside from improving existing types, I do not intend to prototype another major aircraft design until August 1944 (when the ENAER Kodkod flies).

Actually they are all in the 1940 post but not all are 1940. Note I haven't done a Mexican Aviation post since 1937.

Of the fighters the Mx-105 is a 1937 aircraft that was canceled. I only included it because of its relation to the Aguila V.

The Fw-187M++ is just an upgraded version that flew in Talons 1939. I included it cause I finally got around to making specs for it.

The Aguila V is a 1939 program and is directly related to the previous Aguilas and the Mx-105. it is the program that has gotten the most money poured in too.

The Cobra, is related to and a progression of the Aguila and is where all the Aguila engineers are now working with the Aguila V design work pretty much finished in 1939. Note it is still in prototype stage and probably wont enter service untill late 1941/early 1942. It uses alot of stuff from the Aguila V (including the wing).

Of the bombers the B-28 is a progression from the B-23, and is running into serious problems. It probably will not be produced with the FAM buying B-25/B-26 instead.

The Relampago, is actually based on the FW-187R, with a new fuselage to make it a better recce/bomber platform, it still uses the FW-187's wing and nose.

The Javalina ia a simple, no frills, cheap, ground attack plane, that has been around since 1938. I just got around to putting specs to it. The Javalina derivatives are just paper projects at the moment.

The two experimental aircraft are, one that I have been talking about for a long time, and one that is basically a wooden glider. Both have been design and built on a shoestring budget.

There are only three major projects going on (Aguila/Cobra, Relampago, Super Dragon). Of which one will probably be canceled, and the other two are derivatives of planes already around. The Mexican aviation industry is not as extensive as it looks. Note, also that Mexico is not developing any of the engines.

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For the national scene in Chile, I decided to make everything character-driven to a certain extent. I've invented a small number of aircraft engineers for Chile, and they each have a particular specialty which drives the sort of designs they propose for the various civilian and military requirements. While they of course have a full design team backing them up, it gives me more of a feel both for the planes I want to design, and the direction I believe I'll eventually take Chilean aviation.

I've been doing the same thing.

TNCA is under Angel Lascurain (historical person) and is the cutting edge company. Aircraft from there are designed around liquid cooled Curtiss engines.

Azcarte is the one designing and building the larger transports and bombers. Designs are more conventional and use air-cooled radials. Only the B-28 is cutting edge (and its not even the historical B-2 and its running into major problems.

Aviacion Mexicana, builds the unglamorous dirt workers. It's a new company I just introduced to allow TNCA to focus on the high end stuff.

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Originally posted by Desertfox

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I have no real objections to you choosing for Mexico "the wrong path". What I do object to is Mexico developing "the wrong path" even before the historical developers, who put a lot of money into getting it even as soon as they did. I told you when we first discussed this on IRC that I will not prevent you from developing pulsejets, but I would not accept it being done in advance of OTL. ShinRa, Wes and I made this point extremely clear and you have chosen to press gung-ho forward in defiance of moderator warnings.

The problem is, if I go down the historical path... by the time Mexico flies a pulsejet powered manned aircraft, Italy will have been flying motorjets for 5 years, Argentina/Atlantis flying rocket aircraft for 5 years (Japan also is flying rockets, unknown how long), Germany will be flying standard jets for 3 years, and GB standard jets for 1 year (maybe 2?). All of these are superior to the pulsejet and aren't exactly complete secrets. Going down the pulsejet path and waiting untill 1942 is no longer a misguided idea, its a stupid idea, and no longer makes sense, unless it is to build tons of V-1s. And then it would be powergaming.

As for the OTL argument, there was a reason it was not done untill 1942 and it is not due to technical reasons. There was no need for them before (and if it wasn't for WWII we might not have seen them at all). The pulsejet was used because it was cheap, easy to manufacture, and required no exotic stuff. It was used for disposable flying bombs. You don't need such stuff in peace, and Germany already had superior jet engines. Take a look at the pulsejet powered manned aircraft projects. All where late war emergency fighters, designed when resources (to build standard jets) where running low. All had inferior performance to their jet equivalent. The single pulsejet powered He162 couldn't even take off under its own power.

What I'm saying is that the reason the pulsejet isn't seen in OTL untill 1942 is because it sucked, not because it was cutting edge, extremely sophisticated technology. And the reason I choose the pulsejet path over the conventional jet, is because it is simpler, cheaper, and easier to manufacture than a conventional jet. The pulsejet is basically a tube with a valve at one end. Because Mexico was not in the same league as the bigger powers I went that way.

Now since you people still do not want me building pulsejets untill 1942. I proposed an alternative option. Mexico wants too leapfrog everyone (note wants too, not will do), and I have written about jet engine research so I propose that Mexico instead of developing a pulsejet works on a conventional jet projects, with first flight of the aircraft in 1941. It is relatively easy to design and build an experimental jet engine, but not a reliable production one. So the Mexican jet program would be limited only to experimental models, with the research being passed of to the US where the US would continue on and be the one to build the reliable production ones. Note also, that Mexico has worked closely in the past with GE's turbocharger program and with Curtiss turbocharger program (turbocharger = jet engine without combustion chamber). So either company would be the one producing the engines and continuing the research.

Quoted

Per the original post, Mexico has designed three fighters, four bombers, and two experimental aircraft in 1940 alone. By comparison, Chile's designed only six main types of aircraft in the last five years, those being generally smaller, less sophisticated types, or developed with extensive foreign assistance. Even then, I've felt I need to tone down Chile's aircraft program - and so aside from improving existing types, I do not intend to prototype another major aircraft design until August 1944 (when the ENAER Kodkod flies).

Actually they are all in the 1940 post but not all are 1940. Note I haven't done a Mexican Aviation post since 1937.

Of the fighters the Mx-105 is a 1937 aircraft that was canceled. I only included it because of its relation to the Aguila V.

The Fw-187M++ is just an upgraded version that flew in Talons 1939. I included it cause I finally got around to making specs for it.

The Aguila V is a 1939 program and is directly related to the previous Aguilas and the Mx-105. it is the program that has gotten the most money poured in too.

The Cobra, is related to and a progression of the Aguila and is where all the Aguila engineers are now working with the Aguila V design work pretty much finished in 1939. Note it is still in prototype stage and probably wont enter service untill late 1941/early 1942. It uses alot of stuff from the Aguila V (including the wing).

Of the bombers the B-28 is a progression from the B-23, and is running into serious problems. It probably will not be produced with the FAM buying B-25/B-26 instead.

The Relampago, is actually based on the FW-187R, with a new fuselage to make it a better recce/bomber platform, it still uses the FW-187's wing and nose.

The Javalina ia a simple, no frills, cheap, ground attack plane, that has been around since 1938. I just got around to putting specs to it. The Javalina derivatives are just paper projects at the moment.

The two experimental aircraft are, one that I have been talking about for a long time, and one that is basically a wooden glider. Both have been design and built on a shoestring budget.

There are only three major projects going on (Aguila/Cobra, Relampago, Super Dragon). Of which one will probably be canceled, and the other two are derivatives of planes already around. The Mexican aviation industry is not as extensive as it looks. Note, also that Mexico is not developing any of the engines.

Quoted

For the national scene in Chile, I decided to make everything character-driven to a certain extent. I've invented a small number of aircraft engineers for Chile, and they each have a particular specialty which drives the sort of designs they propose for the various civilian and military requirements. While they of course have a full design team backing them up, it gives me more of a feel both for the planes I want to design, and the direction I believe I'll eventually take Chilean aviation.

I've been doing the same thing.

TNCA is under Angel Lascurain (historical person) and is the cutting edge company. Aircraft from there are designed around liquid cooled Curtiss engines.

Azcarte is the one designing and building the larger transports and bombers. Designs are more conventional and use air-cooled radials. Only the B-28 is cutting edge (and its not even the historical B-2 and its running into major problems.

Aviacion Mexicana, builds the unglamorous dirt workers. It's a new company I just introduced to allow TNCA to focus on the high end stuff.

No.

I hear you talking about (pulse) jets - but what about highly performance airframes including swept wings etc.? How do the Mexicans get there as in your drawings of He162 "five years down the road"? In OTL it were only the Germans - and the Allies once they got German wind tunnel results, math and other neat things....

Actually those drawings came about as I was trying to modify the respective planes so they where not direct copies of the German ones. I was playing with the Me163 wing and stuck it on the He162 and really like the looks of it. Note the first Mexican jet aircraft won't have swept wings. 5 years might be a bit optimistic but 7 would be perfectly inline with OTL.

The idea for swept wings wasn't known just to the Germans. It was already in use as a stability measure in tailless aircraft (like the Mexican glider). The use of swept wings for high speed flight was introduced at the Volta Conference of 1935. However, that was forgotten and it was not until 1939 that actual research was begun on swept wings. The concept and research behind swept wings is not all that difficult to conduct. For the allies it was a case off the Germans already did it, so why should we do it all over again, just use their research.

In WW the Canadian aircraft all use swept wings, as do the Australian canard ones, and OTL US tailless aircraft (XP-55, XP-56). So the general concept and some research would be available to Mexico.

Note that the swept wing on the Me163 was only for stability reasons with the Me163 suffering from compressibility problems at Mach 0.82 (~550 mph). So the Mexican fighter would be similarly limited.

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
Actually those drawings came about as I was trying to modify the respective planes so they where not direct copies of the German ones. I was playing with the Me163 wing and stuck it on the He162 and really like the looks of it. Note the first Mexican jet aircraft won't have swept wings. 5 years might be a bit optimistic but 7 would be perfectly inline with OTL.

The idea for swept wings wasn't known just to the Germans. It was already in use as a stability measure in tailless aircraft (like the Mexican glider). The use of swept wings for high speed flight was introduced at the Volta Conference of 1935. However, that was forgotten and it was not until 1939 that actual research was begun on swept wings. The concept and research behind swept wings is not all that difficult to conduct. For the allies it was a case off the Germans already did it, so why should we do it all over again, just use their research.

In WW the Canadian aircraft all use swept wings, as do the Australian canard ones, and OTL US tailless aircraft (XP-55, XP-56). So the general concept and some research would be available to Mexico.

Note that the swept wing on the Me163 was only for stability reasons with the Me163 suffering from compressibility problems at Mach 0.82 (~550 mph). So the Mexican fighter would be similarly limited.

No.

And for the sake of absolute clarity, I will say this as plainly as possible, in hopes you will realize this is not an invitation for debate;

The Moderators, after hearing numerous complaints about Mexico's aviation projects being vastly in excess of it's relative industrial and developmental capacity, have concluded that several projects do not jive with the tone, flow, and relative equilibrium it is felt this sim should have.

We have, at several junctures, both publicly and privately, attempted to compell you to voluntarily tone down and restructure your ideas and plans in this area. We have also, bluntly and plainly told you that your Pulsejet project was not acceptable.

You have consistently ignored all complaints, dissent, and criticsm, both from the players in general, and the Moderators in particular. You seem to assume that if you argue with us long enough, we will give up, and you have 'won' your case. This is a flawed, tiresome, and frankly unacceptable approach.

Since you have consistently refused to accomodate the wishes of your fellow players, and direct rulings from the Moderators, the Moderators will now have to take steps to realign the Mexican Aviation industry to a more compatible and complementary position within the sim as a whole.