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Territorial Waters

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ShinRa_Inc

Mad Scientist at Work

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61

Thursday, December 9th 2010, 6:44pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
Surely as the Arctic is floating pack ice there is no opposite shore until you reach the Russian Siberian coast. Therefore it couldn't count as an internal sea unless you count the thick icepack as land (ie being firm enough to walk on, build on etc etc) then that might allow such a term to apply. If so then I guess Russia could make such a claim for its own Arctic sealanes along its coast.


Canada isn't talking about the Ice cap;

Canada is referring to the waterways within the Arctic Archipelago. Canada considers the waterways between those islands, and between the mainland (including Hudson Bay, Foxe Basin, etc) to be internal waters under absolute Canadian Sovereignty.

Hood

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62

Friday, December 10th 2010, 3:31pm

If you claim those islands as Canadian surely they are internal waters?

The DEI would face similar problems otherwise.

RLBH

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63

Friday, December 10th 2010, 5:31pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
If you claim those islands as Canadian surely they are internal waters?

The DEI would face similar problems otherwise.

In RL, most of the world considers the Northwest Passage to form an international strait, which gives non-Canadian vessels the right of passage. Canada doesn't accept this viewpoint, and apparently not in WW either. It's only really an issue if the Northwest Passage is passable, or if someone has nuclear submarines.

ShinRa_Inc

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64

Friday, December 10th 2010, 8:23pm

WW Canada has spent the last 10 years stomping around the arctic making the NW Passage viable (WW Russia has been doing a similar program with their actic territory)

As RLBH points out, WW Canada's position is the same as OTL. Just Canada has more of a means of enforcing it than OTL.

The DEI is up to Kirk, but unlike the Canadian arctic, it's composed of named seas and presumably has about as much multinational traffic as historical. Whenever the RCN has been in the area, Canada has consulted the Dutch government, at least as a courtesy.

Red Admiral

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65

Friday, December 10th 2010, 9:23pm

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc
WW Canada has spent the last 10 years stomping around the arctic making the NW Passage viable (WW Russia has been doing a similar program with their actic territory).


"Viable" is rather open to discussion. Neither passage is viable today with massively less sea ice. Sure, you could argue that Atlantis changed the climate some how meaning that there's less ice, but in that case I'm foresting the Sahara and adding some fjords.

ShinRa_Inc

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66

Friday, December 10th 2010, 9:56pm

Well, it's not viable as a regular commercial route, but Canada's charted and otherwise used brute force (ie, with escorting icebreakers and other assets) to make it viable as a miilitary route. That's how I'm viewing it for now.

Kaiser Kirk

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67

Saturday, December 11th 2010, 6:42pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
If you claim those islands as Canadian surely they are internal waters?

The DEI would face similar problems otherwise.


And I've been saving reading this thread until later when I have more of that time thing. Which really isn't just now. :)

Dutch in WW have long claimed 12nm limits, but generally support freedom of the seas. Currently, Malacca, Lombok, Flores and Sunda straits all fall within cannon shot of shore batteries.

Long ago in my news made the point of hostile (Satsuma) getting heavily shadowed while allied do not. Others tend to get patrol planes. I presume that continues. As a persistent worry has been SATSUMA fleet movement cloak an invasion- esp as they ship divisions back and forth (to Phillipines/Pakistan/Arabia).

RCN courtesy has been noted in the past and they are not shadowed, nor are British-Aussie traffic.

Hood

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68

Sunday, December 12th 2010, 3:26pm

And of course under the terms of SAER all naval traffic intelligence is freely passed between Australia, Canada, Dutch government and DEI authorities and Great Britain, France and Russia. So there are no great hiding places and now the Empire is making strides in completing its aerial reconnaissance programme towards others areas of the Pacific.

TexanCowboy

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69

Thursday, February 3rd 2011, 4:51am

Bump.


Seems this should be readdressed...

ShinRa_Inc

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70

Thursday, February 3rd 2011, 6:06am

Quoted

Originally posted by TexanCowboy
Bump.


Seems this should be readdressed...


Why? No one's position has changed, and no one's brought a specific dispute before the League for mediation.

Brockpaine

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71

Thursday, February 3rd 2011, 6:10am

ShinRa_Inc

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72

Thursday, February 3rd 2011, 6:18am

Brockpaine

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73

Thursday, February 3rd 2011, 6:19am

Shin found the better one.

TexanCowboy

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74

Thursday, February 3rd 2011, 10:17pm

Chinese+German news?

Brockpaine

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75

Thursday, February 3rd 2011, 10:21pm

Quoted

Originally posted by TexanCowboy
Chinese+German news?

Yes?

TexanCowboy

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76

Thursday, February 3rd 2011, 10:23pm

and the resulting territorial water discussions within?

Quoted

“The German Government does not recognise China’s unilateral extension of its territorial waters beyond the established three mile limit.”

Brockpaine

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77

Thursday, February 3rd 2011, 10:32pm

State your thoughts in more clarity and detail, if you please?

TexanCowboy

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78

Thursday, February 3rd 2011, 10:36pm

In view of the recent news from Germany and China, which quotes are present from, wouldn't it be wise to reopen this topic?

ShinRa_Inc

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79

Thursday, February 3rd 2011, 10:45pm

Quoted

Originally posted by TexanCowboy
In view of the recent news from Germany and China, which quotes are present from, wouldn't it be wise to reopen this topic?


Territorial waters are beyond the purview of the League of Nations, unless a specific problem is brought before the League for mediation and resolution.

China has made ambiguous territorial claims which Germany (and others, I'm sure) do not recognize. Untill such point as one of the parties of this dispute actually brings it before the league (presumably after attempting to, and failing to resolve it between themselves), there's nothing to discuss.

And if anyone does, it will be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

Red Admiral

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80

Thursday, February 3rd 2011, 10:46pm

Quoted

Originally posted by TexanCowboy
In view of the recent news from Germany and China, which quotes are present from, wouldn't it be wise to reopen this topic?


Just because Germany doesn't recognise China's expansion of territorial waters doesn't mean its a matter for debate at LoN. Today we've got countries claiming all sorts of zones territories etc. just look at the Arctic, but these aren't debated in the UN. If one of China's immediate neighbours whom this news affects has a real problem it might be brought up. Germany is miles away. Still, China can pretty much do whatever it wants because international law is a very grey area.