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Going through the old UK reports when Gravina was player when looking to see if any of the X-1 class submarines were built I noticed Gravina built two new aircraft tenders, HMS Pegass ans HMS Maidstone in 1927.
No stats made their way to the encylopedia but I wondered if any of the older players who can remember five years ago can ever recall any stats or where they might be posted.

If none exist would anyone have objections if I reverese-engineered them from the 1927 report tonnages paid to make a new SS report?

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
Going through the old UK reports when Gravina was player when looking to see if any of the X-1 class submarines were built I noticed Gravina built two new aircraft tenders, HMS Pegass ans HMS Maidstone in 1927.
No stats made their way to the encylopedia but I wondered if any of the older players who can remember five years ago can ever recall any stats or where they might be posted.

Comment by RLBH about the Maidstone. I presume they exist based on the presence of the reports, though.

I can find no Springsharps in a web-search of the forum, so I suspect they were never posted.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
If none exist would anyone have objections if I reverese-engineered them from the 1927 report tonnages paid to make a new SS report?

So long as the displacements match that outlined in the sim reports, I'd accept that, yes.

Ye Gads it gets worse.

The following are 'missing' ships from 1927
HMS Pegasus 12,000 ton Seaplane Carrier/Tender

HMS Maidstone
HMS Forth
9,000 ton seaplane carrier/tenders

HMS Echodale
HMS Ennerdale
15000t Fleet oilers

HMS Oakol
HMS Teakol
HMS Cedarol
10,500 ton fleet oilers

None of these have been listed but look to have been built.

Then I found Alt Naval also did a four qaurter UK report for 1927 as well which mentions none of these ships and seems very different!

I'd like to SS report the tenders at least and add all of these to my existing fleet numbers and removing the oldest to make sure the total tallys are the same.

None of the X-es were built under Gravina. He indicated that in the 1926 report. No indications in any of Gravina's posts regarding sims of the Pegasus and Maidstone/Forth. Only weights are given.

RLBH said: "the information I have doesn't suggest that they exist." but 1926/1927 reports by Gravina clearly indicate that they were built and completed in those two years.

http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?postid=18689#post18689
http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?postid=18690#post18690

Can't edit the post to add...

Oilers seem to have started in 1927 but it looks like there is a gap between Gravina's last report and RLBH's first report (could be wrong; haven't looked at it properly) so it seems obvious that they were completed before RLBH's first report.

If the ships are in the sim reports, but no sim is present in the encyclopedia nor can be found elsewhere, then I have no problem with simming the ships anew.

That explains the terrible state of affairs of the British support fleet. So I agree, if the tonnage was paid feel free to add to encyclopedia. I guess you save some tonnage by don't doing some refits to the older ships.

Here are some proposed SS reports. I've renamed Maidstone and Forth since I've used them for other tenders.
Given the large displacements I see the Pegasus to be like the OTL Curtis class, mainly a tender. The smaller two ships are more akin to scouts along OTL Japanese lines with the ability to defend themsleves against enemy DDs and CLs they might encounter.
The light tonnage is identical to that posted in the reports.

HMS Pegasus, Great Britain Seaplane Carrier/ Tender laid down 1926

Displacement:
11,674 t light; 12,033 t standard; 15,278 t normal; 17,874 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
530.04 ft / 525.00 ft x 69.00 ft x 21.60 ft (normal load)
161.56 m / 160.02 m x 21.03 m x 6.58 m

Armament:
2 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 31.00lbs / 14.06kg shells, 1926 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount
2 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 31.00lbs / 14.06kg shells, 1926 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
32 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x8 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1926 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 188 lbs / 85 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 400

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 66,500 shp / 49,609 Kw = 27.09 kts
Range 16,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,840 tons

Complement:
686 - 893

Cost:
£2.510 million / $10.040 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 24 tons, 0.2 %
Armour: 541 tons, 3.5 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 12 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 529 tons, 3.5 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 2,129 tons, 13.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,930 tons, 25.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,604 tons, 23.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 5,050 tons, 33.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,890 lbs / 9,476 Kg = 652.8 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.683
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.61 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.91 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.50 ft / 0.76 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Mid (57 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (16 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 21.94 ft / 6.69 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 173.0 %
Waterplane Area: 28,606 Square feet or 2,658 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 152 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 92 lbs/sq ft or 449 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.50
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

24 seaplanes carried in hangar
Two catapults
50,000 gallons of aviation fuel
Full servicing facilties
1in deck for splinter protection over aviation fuel tanks and magazines


HMS Engadine & Athene (ex Madistone & Forth), Great Britain Seaplane Carrier/ Tender laid down 1926

Displacement:
8,753 t light; 9,083 t standard; 11,666 t normal; 13,733 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
504.36 ft / 500.00 ft x 63.00 ft x 19.70 ft (normal load)
153.73 m / 152.40 m x 19.20 m x 6.00 m

Armament:
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (2x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1926 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 31.00lbs / 14.06kg shells, 1926 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward
32 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x8 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1926 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 620 lbs / 281 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 86,455 shp / 64,495 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,651 tons

Complement:
560 - 729

Cost:
£2.623 million / $10.490 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 78 tons, 0.7 %
Armour: 26 tons, 0.2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 26 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 2,767 tons, 23.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,632 tons, 31.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,913 tons, 25.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2,250 tons, 19.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
13,798 lbs / 6,259 Kg = 127.8 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 15.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.16
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.658
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.94 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (55 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Quarterdeck (16 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Stern: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Average freeboard: 24.24 ft / 7.39 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 103.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 198.4 %
Waterplane Area: 24,308 Square feet or 2,258 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 138 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 91 lbs/sq ft or 442 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.37
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

24 seaplanes carried in hangar
Two catapults
28,500 gallons of aviation fuel

I need more help from the old hands as I've found more inconsistencies from Gravina's days as player.

1. The 70 DE23, DE24 and DE25 classes. Are they all of Defiant Class specs?
All of these now are reaching scrapping age so its not vital but some could be rebuilt into sloops. Even RLBH was trying to work out what was going on!
1922 DEs

2. The four Hector Class cruisers (HMS Hector, HMS Priam, HMS Aeneas, HMS Paris) were built and are on reports and have SS reports on them but they don't appear in the encloypedia. Where did they go?
Hector

3. The eight Powys Class DLs, the same as the Hectors, were definately built and have SS reports but again where are they?
Powys

4. HMS York and Exeter , two unknown ships to me but these have been built but no final decision made on the specs Gravina posted. Now there has always been an odd number of CAs which never matched all the names I had for RLBH's ships so these two missing ships have been counted. I'd like to have these and cut two of the Kents I have (but I was never sure all of them were Kents).
York

These have all been paid for so should exist somewhere. Somehow the encloypedias and OOB tallies must be out or they have been counted but not present?

EDIT: Added links to relevant pages

If they were paid for they should be included in the encyclopedia. But that is just my opinion.

Agreed, if the costs are payed, the ships are built so they should be included in the encyclopedia.

My proposed solution is thus;

With the seventy DEs, due to their age, it is now assumed that the 20 DE23 and 20 DE24 are now decommissioned (awating scrap), that leaves some 30 DE25 the last of which would be decommissioned by 1942-43. Some may end up in the Egyptian and Iraqi navies. Now of course I won't be swamping the market with 70 used DEs but most will end up as scrap but some will reach the export market.

The four Hector would be assumed to have been transferred to the RCN alongside the Diana Class due to their common 5.5in guns which the RN doesn't use.

The eight Powys would remain in RN service and all need refits/ rebuilds about now.


The heavy cruisers pose a bigger problem. When I took over as UK player I had 12 heavy cruiser based on RLBH's reports. RLBH was working to Alt Naval's 1927 and 1928 reports so that force was 4 Howe/ Hawke, 4 Anson and 4 Kent.
Now to complicate Gravina had already posted a full set of 1927 reports in which York and Exeter were built. Alt Naval came along when Gravina left and did a second set of 1927 reports where three Hawke Class took the place of the two Yorks.

So what happened to the Yorks? Alt Naval seems to have discarded them and they turned into the bigger Hawke (in the enclopedia as the Howe Class).
I leave it to the mods to decide the fate of the York Class on the basis of Gravina's final reports.

I'll have to review the sim reports themselves to be certain, but my gut feeling is to prefer Gravina's reports over AltNaval's: having reviewed the Greek reports extensively before Sachmle took over, I found a lot of mistakes there.

In the case of the Heavy Cruisers, would Clieto restrictions have come into play had they existed?

I'll have something to say when I get home this weekend, probably.

I've found this, which may help sort things for you;

http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?threadid=3774&sid=

Quoted

Originally posted by RLBH
Aieee! My sanity!

I made the fatal mistake of digging up the dregs of past UK reports, and found that there are duplicated reports for 1925 to 1927 (ish), which don't match. I'm treating those produced by Alt Naval as "canon", since I wasn't aware of the alternate option until about five minutes ago.

However, Gravina's reports make extensive reference to the DE22 and DE23 classes - which, at least, I should have - and also DE24, DE25 and DE26 classes, which I assume are lost to the duplicate reports. That accounts for the "40 to 70" figure for DEs in the order of battle.

However, I haven't the remotest notion what these ships actually are, despite searching the forums. I can only assume they are some sort of derivative of the so-called "Defiant" torpedo boats, unless someone can enlighten me...

It also appears I may be owed some factories...

http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?postid=25948#post25948

Quoted

Originally posted by RLBH
I will consider a proportion of new factories to be located in Canada. For example, consider Canada to have 10 factories and the rest of the British Empire (excluding Australia) 40. If 5 factories are built, the fifth would be considered Canadian - keeping the two in proportion.

Does this sound fair?

RLBH

And a quick look (I haven't crunched any numbers here or anything) seems to imply that the F and G class CLs replaced the Hectors during the three-year overlap. Likewise, it seems the Drake class replaced the Kent class (I remember talk about how whomever was running the RN at some point didn't want his CAs to be confused with OTL counties, and thus didn't use county names), and likewise the Hawke class replaced the York/Exeter, with Alt-Naval making it a larger class in the process.

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc
It also appears I may be owed some factories...

http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?postid=25948#post25948

Quoted

Originally posted by RLBH
I will consider a proportion of new factories to be located in Canada. For example, consider Canada to have 10 factories and the rest of the British Empire (excluding Australia) 40. If 5 factories are built, the fifth would be considered Canadian - keeping the two in proportion.

Does this sound fair?

RLBH

It would appear to me that that's not the course past British players elected to go, as Canada only had ten when it became a player country. In any case, we're trying to determine correct ship totals, not redistribute Great Britain's factories. What's done is done, so far as I'm concerned.

I'm leaving things alone, its too tangled to untangle it all without causing wider complications for a number of ship classes.

I've not lost anything really but at least the DE question is finally cleared u in my mind even if most of those ships have now moved on to pastures new.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc
It also appears I may be owed some factories...

http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?postid=25948#post25948

Quoted

Originally posted by RLBH
I will consider a proportion of new factories to be located in Canada. For example, consider Canada to have 10 factories and the rest of the British Empire (excluding Australia) 40. If 5 factories are built, the fifth would be considered Canadian - keeping the two in proportion.

Does this sound fair?

RLBH

It would appear to me that that's not the course past British players elected to go, as Canada only had ten when it became a player country. In any case, we're trying to determine correct ship totals, not redistribute Great Britain's factories. What's done is done, so far as I'm concerned.

Agreed, it would also seem unfair to some, I'd think, that Canada somehow gains free factory's?

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Agreed, it would also seem unfair to some, I'd think, that Canada somehow gains free factory's?

No such thing as a free lunch; Any factories owed to Canada would be deducted from what the UK has, just like when Canada was started.

I don't even know if the Crown has built 5 factories between then and when I started playing, nor really expect Hood to follow up on it, I just found it interesting.

[size=1]And even a long shot of getting a few more factories doesn't hurt. [/size]