WesWorld

Interesting range of designs. Our minimum build-time rules make the last two a bit questionable, especially the last one.

Hard for me to really compare the Iowa and Kentucky derivitives on the second-hand laptop I'm using at the moment, but I notice all three are high speed; This does seem to leave the Montanas as a 'slow-wing' to any further battleship construction, while the marginally faster ships are mighty expensive to achieve that speed, which brings me back to the previous question; Where do these designs fit with the Montanas into fleet doctrine?

Well, looking at all the capital ship built in the past few years, they mostly seem to be in the 30kt range, so it would make sense to me that the US would want at least some of their ships to follow suite. While there might not be the historical Kongos to worry about there are enough fast capital ships in service or building to justify at least some fast ships even if the main fleet speed stays in the upper 20's. I'm also debating going with the "Vanguard Option", reusing the 14" turrets in new battlecruisers.

Bon Homme Richard, United States Battlecruiser laid down 1940

Displacement:
41,972 t light; 43,999 t standard; 47,648 t normal; 50,568 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
891.40 ft / 873.00 ft x 104.00 ft (Bulges 108.00 ft) x 33.00 ft (normal load)
271.70 m / 266.09 m x 31.70 m (Bulges 32.92 m) x 10.06 m

Armament:
12 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1,500.00lbs / 680.39kg shells, 1940 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (8x2 guns), 55.00lbs / 24.95kg shells, 1940 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
80 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (20x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 12 raised mounts
46 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 19,047 lbs / 8,640 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 538.47 ft / 164.13 m 12.24 ft / 3.73 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2.00" / 51 mm 538.47 ft / 164.13 m 29.99 ft / 9.14 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm

- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 224,801 shp / 167,702 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,569 tons

Complement:
1,612 - 2,096

Cost:
£24.971 million / $99.883 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,204 tons, 4.6 %
Armour: 14,215 tons, 29.8 %
- Belts: 3,947 tons, 8.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,195 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 4,049 tons, 8.5 %
- Armour Deck: 4,628 tons, 9.7 %
- Conning Tower: 396 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 6,011 tons, 12.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 19,392 tons, 40.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,677 tons, 11.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
60,340 lbs / 27,370 Kg = 44.0 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 8.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 6.3 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 18.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.536
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.08 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 19.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 36.00 ft / 10.97 m
- Forecastle (19 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (19 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Stern: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Average freeboard: 24.61 ft / 7.50 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 170.0 %
Waterplane Area: 62,538 Square feet or 5,810 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 212 lbs/sq ft or 1,034 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.14
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Ooooooh.

I like that... it's a good thing (or potentially - too bad) I've already committed to a new Chilean battleship design, because that'd sure tempt me...

minor nit; date for the main guns would be 1916-20, to represent the old guns. Shouldn't really affect anything tho.

What about a 3 turret design? Should result in more ships, and quicker (again, due to minimum build-times)

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
Ooooooh.

I like that... it's a good thing (or potentially - too bad) I've already committed to a new Chilean battleship design, because that'd sure tempt me...

I like it as well, and unfortunately adding the USN 14in makes little sense when Brazil has the German 13.8in already. Still, Brazil out of idle curiosity wonder's what she would look like with 1 knot less speed, abit more armour and 16in twins.........

Building battleships is the hardest thing to do, there are so many different paths and things to take into account that it takes a dozen SS reports and a hundred ideas just to get what you want and even then its not always ideal.

Canis has a hard job on his hands. Interesting to comapre this to my own designs for the Admirals.

Quoted

What about a 3 turret design? Should result in more ships, and quicker (again, due to minimum build-times)

Next, you'll probably be asking for a pocket battleship design.

Frightening.....

The Bonhomme Richard probably is really worth considering. She is fast enough and has a large enough hull to catch almost everything while her firepower and armor is up to everything but the largest and lastest super-BBs.

Canis - Do you have used different 40mm mounts on your drawing?

Poltava is an interesting design but I noticed that "B" turret is not superfiring and the Secondary Battery isn't DP. I fixed these but then had to tweak the design for seakeeping and belt length...

***************

Poltava, Soviet Union Battlecruiser laid down 1942

Displacement:
48,967 t light; 51,364 t standard; 57,379 t normal; 62,192 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
908.56 ft / 885.83 ft x 104.99 ft (Bulges 116.14 ft) x 32.48 ft (normal load)
276.93 m / 270.00 m x 32.00 m (Bulges 35.40 m) x 9.90 m

Armament:
9 - 16.54" / 420 mm guns (3x3 guns), 2,262.44lbs / 1,026.23kg shells, 1942 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (2x2 guns), 67.11lbs / 30.44kg shells, 1942 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
20 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (10x2 guns), 67.11lbs / 30.44kg shells, 1942 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
72 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (18x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1942 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
16 - 0.55" / 14.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1942 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 22,085 lbs / 10,018 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.7" / 399 mm 510.13 ft / 155.49 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 89 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.97" / 50 mm 510.13 ft / 155.49 m 34.12 ft / 10.40 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.7" / 399 mm 9.84" / 250 mm 13.8" / 351 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 5.91" / 150 mm, Conning tower: 15.75" / 400 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 230,779 shp / 172,161 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 10,828 tons

Complement:
1,853 - 2,409

Cost:
£31.034 million / $124.137 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,761 tons, 4.8 %
Armour: 17,696 tons, 30.8 %
- Belts: 4,564 tons, 8.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,269 tons, 2.2 %
- Armament: 3,915 tons, 6.8 %
- Armour Deck: 7,444 tons, 13.0 %
- Conning Tower: 505 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 6,029 tons, 10.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 22,207 tons, 38.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 8,412 tons, 14.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 275 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
80,358 lbs / 36,450 Kg = 35.5 x 16.5 " / 420 mm shells or 11.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 7.2 ft / 2.2 m
Roll period: 18.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.13

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.601
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.76 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 39.37 ft / 12.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.26 ft / 7.70 m
- Mid (50 %): 24.44 ft / 7.45 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 25.26 ft / 7.70 m
- Stern: 30.18 ft / 9.20 m
- Average freeboard: 26.49 ft / 8.07 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 173.9 %
Waterplane Area: 68,085 Square feet or 6,325 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 220 lbs/sq ft or 1,076 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.17
- Overall: 1.01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

I think the lack of superfiring main gun turrets might be deliberate, seeing how the last two classes (Soyuz Nerushimy and Slava) also have no superfiring main gun turrets.

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10
I think the lack of superfiring main gun turrets might be deliberate, seeing how the last two classes (Soyuz Nerushimy and Slava) also have no superfiring main gun turrets.

I don't really see the point in it myself. You can make the ship a little bit smaller but at the same time you're getting restricted firing arcs for the main turrets, and cramming everything else into a very small superstructure.

Below is a quick cut and paste of an Iowa to show the effect of lowering just one of the turrets. Soyuz Nerushimy with all four turrets on the weather deck has basically no superstructure left. Nowhere to fit all those AA guns, or space to do much at all.

The arrangement wasn't too bad in WW1, but for modern ships with more light guns, FC positions, larger crews, and longer durations being spent at sea. I don't feel the ~2000tons is worth hamstringing the ship that much.

I agree with you, but it's what Adm.K. likes apparently.

Some of the 40mm mounts on the 18" uberdeathbattleshipfromhell have blast shields covering them to protect them from muzzle blast like some of the AA on Yamato.

Bunker Hill, United States Battlecruiser laid down 1940

Displacement:
38,731 t light; 40,433 t standard; 43,901 t normal; 46,676 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
873.40 ft / 855.00 ft x 104.00 ft x 32.00 ft (normal load)
266.21 m / 260.60 m x 31.70 m x 9.75 m

Armament:
9 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,500.00lbs / 680.39kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (8x2 guns), 55.00lbs / 24.95kg shells, 1940 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
80 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (20x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 12 raised mounts
38 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 14,545 lbs / 6,598 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 536.60 ft / 163.56 m 12.24 ft / 3.73 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 536.60 ft / 163.56 m 29.17 ft / 8.89 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm

- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 242,558 shp / 180,948 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,243 tons

Complement:
1,516 - 1,971

Cost:
£22.095 million / $88.379 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,689 tons, 3.8 %
Armour: 12,999 tons, 29.6 %
- Belts: 3,930 tons, 9.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,158 tons, 2.6 %
- Armament: 2,986 tons, 6.8 %
- Armour Deck: 4,549 tons, 10.4 %
- Conning Tower: 375 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 6,486 tons, 14.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 17,356 tons, 39.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,171 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
58,070 lbs / 26,340 Kg = 42.3 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 8.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 6.9 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.540
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.22 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.24 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 19.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 36.00 ft / 10.97 m
- Forecastle (19 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (19 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Stern: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Average freeboard: 24.56 ft / 7.49 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 177.7 %
Waterplane Area: 61,478 Square feet or 5,712 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 196 lbs/sq ft or 959 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.18
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc
minor nit; date for the main guns would be 1916-20, to represent the old guns. Shouldn't really affect anything tho.

And if that's the case, the Tennessees should have newer-style turrets, because their original turrets are busy being on a completely different ship!

No, because the orginal turrets for the ship were built back in 1919, when the ship was being built, before Cleito was signed.

The Tennessees have new construction turrets but they are based on the original design 16" turrets, which are very similar to the 14" turrets.

I don't think the USA would realistically build an inferior design to the rest of the world. They would stick with the 16in.

Doing a Vangaurd type build isn't really cost effective in peacetime given the small cost savings. In wartime with the USA facing five years of global fighting then it would make sense to build the Bunker Hill. It's impressive in size and speed but everything else is on par or decidely average.