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Hungarian Army 1939

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perdedor99

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Thursday, July 1st 2010, 2:56pm

Hungarian Army 1939

I see no reason for the Hungarian Army to be any difference from OTL one except in equipment. So here it goes

14 Infantry Brigades divided in seven "Corps", in reality infantry division.

2 Cavalry Brigades with one armored battalion attached each.

2 fully Motorized Brigades with one infantry regiment and one armored battalion each.

the total armored vehicles in Hungary were 153 in october 1938. The differences I see are that in OTL the armored units were using italian tankettes except for one company using Fiat 3000 and some using armored cars. Here I say the Italians still sold some of their old Fiat 3000 but instead of tankettes they sold cruisers tanks to Hungary with an order of armored cars been taken under the table.


Any thoughts? Agreements?

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "perdedor99" (Jul 1st 2010, 2:57pm)

Hrolf Hakonson

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Thursday, July 1st 2010, 3:05pm

Sounds about right, after Trianon is lifted.

Vukovlad

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Thursday, July 1st 2010, 3:06pm

Persia has spent a lot of money on Hungarian arms and with Romanias rapid re-armament I would expect that Hungary would haste its own re-armament and mechanization in OTL Hungary spent five times as much money per soldier than Romania so the Toldi & Turan are probably ready for production

perdedor99

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Thursday, July 1st 2010, 3:31pm

To built the Toldi or the Turan they need first to purchase Nordmark and Czech. OTL the Toldi is based on a Swedish tank and the Turan in a Czech design "donated" by the Germans. I can see after Trianon been lifted for the Hungarians trying to purchase Czech or German.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "perdedor99" (Jul 1st 2010, 3:31pm)

Vukovlad

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Thursday, July 1st 2010, 3:37pm

There you got the hen and egg again, Landsverka was basicly abasicly a german firm building tanks in Sweden due to Versailles but in WW that is unlikely for two reasons A) Why would nordmark an Entante power help germany breaking the treaty and B) Limitations were abolished far earlier. Btw the toldi being based on the L-60 was a surprise OTL since it was expected for the domestic V4 to win

perdedor99

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Thursday, July 1st 2010, 3:45pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad
There you got the hen and egg again, Landsverka was basicly abasicly a german firm building tanks in Sweden due to Versailles but in WW that is unlikely for two reasons A) Why would nordmark an Entante power help germany breaking the treaty and B) Limitations were abolished far earlier. Btw the toldi being based on the L-60 was a surprise OTL since it was expected for the domestic V4 to win


So a tank called the Toldi could be built but will not be OTL one, a local design instead because I agree with what you're saying in regard to Nordmark. For the Turan I still think they could buy Czech or German or for the license to built.

Hood

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Saturday, July 3rd 2010, 2:59pm

Why does everyone in WW assume buy German or buy Czech?

Why wouldn't Hungary buy Nordmark or Coldmere? Or British or French or anything else?

Let's have some variety in the world rather than faceless rows of identical tanks everywhere in the world.

TexanCowboy

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Saturday, July 3rd 2010, 4:17pm

I bought British! :D

*Or, rather, got the scrapping remains off of the Mark V Composites* :D

perdedor99

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Saturday, July 3rd 2010, 4:37pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
Why does everyone in WW assume buy German or buy Czech?

Why wouldn't Hungary buy Nordmark or Coldmere? Or British or French or anything else?

Let's have some variety in the world rather than faceless rows of identical tanks everywhere in the world.


Closer and a proven industry in the case of the Czechs.

BruceDuncan

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Saturday, July 3rd 2010, 4:38pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
Why does everyone in WW assume buy German or buy Czech?

Why wouldn't Hungary buy Nordmark or Coldmere? Or British or French or anything else?

Let's have some variety in the world rather than faceless rows of identical tanks everywhere in the world.



I know that when I considered the market it was very unclear what Nordmark or Coldmere had available for sale; and frankly, what to be seen of French manufacture are development and tactical dead ends. I say that, knowing that France may have vehicles in the pipeline that are unknown to the wider world.

Some of the more recent British designs have excellent export potential, but whether they are available on the market is yet to be known.

In non-WW terms, I believe that the thinking may stem from too much reading of WW2 history, and the poor reputation early British tanks came out with. Put a Comet or Centurion on the market and I think the world will beat a path to your door.

I know I would!

Hood

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Saturday, July 3rd 2010, 5:39pm

Well I'm not calling for more British exports but just a bit more openmidness. Hungary isn't going to be fielding a mobile force to wage Blitzkreig on anyone. They might favour infantry support to anti-tank. Likewise what is cheap might also appeal to the Hungarian Army.
I agree though the Czechs have a strong fan base.

perdedor99

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Saturday, July 3rd 2010, 5:58pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
Well I'm not calling for more British exports but just a bit more openmidness. Hungary isn't going to be fielding a mobile force to wage Blitzkreig on anyone. They might favour infantry support to anti-tank. Likewise what is cheap might also appeal to the Hungarian Army.
I agree though the Czechs have a strong fan base.


So in that case IMO go with Italian and Czech. The Semoventes IMO are very good defensive vehicles and IOTL the Italians were know for selling cheap to get clients.

Vukovlad

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Saturday, July 3rd 2010, 9:23pm

I would be happy to create alternative designs if that is asked for, but IMHO the OTL Toldi and Turan are good enough first steps even if developed domesticlly

Hrolf Hakonson

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Saturday, July 3rd 2010, 10:11pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad
I would be happy to create alternative designs if that is asked for, but IMHO the OTL Toldi and Turan are good enough first steps even if developed domesticlly


One advantage for the Hungarians in getting help from German and/or Czech sources is that they are more likely to have personnel who can speak the Hungarian's language, and vice versa. Of course, if the borders along the Czech-Hungarian borders are as historical, the Hungarians would probably prefer NOT to deal with the Czechs: they weren't exactl;y friends over those borders historically..

The WW French are not bad people to get in contact with if you want heavy tanks, given that Transall designed the AT/TT-37, but I haven't heard that their light or medium stuff is any better than historically.

Vukovlad

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Sunday, July 4th 2010, 12:22am

I would like to remind people here that OTL Hungary had the strongest industrial base in eastern Europe (excluding the Czechs), of special intrest are firms like FÉG, Danuvia, Straussler, Rába and Manfred Weiss

perdedor99

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Sunday, July 4th 2010, 1:06am

The historical Toldi and the Turan would not exist in WW IMO. The Toldi was based on Swedish L60 tank and the Turan in a Czech prototype gifted by the Germans.

I agree with Vuck that a Toldi would be name of a local design but a Turan would be something completely different. Maybe a license for the Semovente? Or the Panzer IV?

thesmilingassassin

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Sunday, July 4th 2010, 8:23am

Honestly I don't think we see enough country's buying French tanks. Hungary is more likely to buy from great war allies IMO and without the historical Toldi and Turan design anythings possible.

I have to agree with Hood, why the same old designs?

Vukovlad

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Sunday, July 4th 2010, 8:38am

I still dont see why they cant use the OTL Toldi, so it isnt developed by Landsverk that shouldnt stop the Hungarians to develop it ( and its a nice change from all the LT38 clones).

thesmilingassassin

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Sunday, July 4th 2010, 9:34am

Well for starters Germany's headed down their own path to tank developement and I'm not aware of any attempt by them in WW to increase their shares in Landsverk via their Dutch connections. Therefor no need to send German engineer Otto Merker to work on designs.

Another thing, we apparently have avoided the great depression, therefore Landsverk likely doesn't find itselve on the verge of bankruptcy.

Hrolf Hakonson

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Sunday, July 4th 2010, 12:12pm

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Honestly I don't think we see enough country's buying French tanks. Hungary is more likely to buy from great war allies IMO and without the historical Toldi and Turan design anythings possible.

I have to agree with Hood, why the same old designs?


Well, in the Great War Hungary is part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, so if they're going to buy from Great War allies they'd buy from either the Czechs or Germany. Keep in mind that while they got their independence from Austria at Versailles, they also got (in their opinion at least) totally screwed on the borders of the country at the same time, and they were put under restrictions almost as onerous as Austria.

As far as Nordish tanks go, they've certainly been building them, see this thread: http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?threadid=5654&sid= .
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