WesWorld

I am still learning the basics but I think this doesn't look that bad. Any comments and suggestions gratefully accepted.

I actually do have an image to accompany this, but would someone explain how I go about attaching it?

Thanks!

----
Project 12, TBD Escort Sloop laid down 1936

Displacement:
938 t light; 974 t standard; 1,188 t normal; 1,359 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
273.77 ft / 269.03 ft x 28.54 ft x 9.84 ft (normal load)
83.45 m / 82.00 m x 8.70 m x 3.00 m

Armament:
4 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1936 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in one mount, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1936 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships, 1 raised gun
4 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1928 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 146 lbs / 66 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.51" / 13 mm -
2nd: 0.51" / 13 mm - -
3rd: 0.51" / 13 mm - -

- Conning tower: 0.98" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 10,194 shp / 7,605 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 384 tons

Complement:
100 - 131

Cost:
£0.465 million / $1.861 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 18 tons, 1.5 %
Armour: 11 tons, 1.0 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 9 tons, 0.7 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 286 tons, 24.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 572 tons, 48.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 250 tons, 21.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 4.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,926 lbs / 874 Kg = 54.5 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 12.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.43

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.43 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.40 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.31 ft / 6.80 m
- Forecastle (12 %): 17.06 ft / 5.20 m
- Mid (41 %): 17.06 ft / 5.20 m
- Quarterdeck (37 %): 8.86 ft / 2.70 m
- Stern: 10.17 ft / 3.10 m
- Average freeboard: 13.62 ft / 4.15 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.1 %
Waterplane Area: 5,359 Square feet or 498 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 152 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 52 lbs/sq ft or 255 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 4.62
- Overall: 1.10
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Main armament - Bofors 105mm 41cal Model 1936
Secondary armament - Bofors 40mm 60cal Model 1936
Tertiary armament - Oerlikon 20mm 60cal Model 1928

50 tons Miscellaneous Weight reserved for Antisubmarine Weapons, handling gear and ASDIC

You have some reserve hull strength left and could lower your Block coefficient to cut this, saving weight. Also, if using Mount and Hoist I usually armor the hoist/below deck area as this is basically the handling room/powder magazine area and a hit there is not a good thing. Other than that, it looks pretty nice.

My first comment is that this ship length is high.
You will need a type 1 slip to build it.

Its one of the reasons why so many ships have lengths of 70m ,120m 170m, 220m and so on.

150 105mm shells is pretty low number.
You will have only 10 to 15 minutes of sustained fire with it.
Twice that number is preferable.

Steadiness is high,
Seaboat quality is high
with is good.
But recoil is high also with is fine but I try to avoid it as much as possible.
Stability is low with is something most people on this board will point out.

the overall hull strength is well unusual.


As for posting pictures.
I use www.photobucket.com its easy to use and free.

This is a random unrelated picture.


If a picture you want is on the web just put its address between *IMG* in brackets and */IMG* or use the seventh button above the text area in you post reply window.

Quoted

Originally posted by Marek Gutkowski
My first comment is that this ship length is high.
You will need a type 1 slip to build it.

Its one of the reasons why so many ships have lengths of 70m ,120m 170m, 220m and so on.

150 105mm shells is pretty low number.
You will have only 10 to 15 minutes of sustained fire with it.
Twice that number is preferable.

Steadiness is high,
Seaboat quality is high
with is good.
But recoil is high also with is fine but I try to avoid it as much as possible.
Stability is low with is something most people on this board will point out.

the overall hull strength is well unusual.

The historical ROF for the main armament is 15 rounds per minute - which gives her 10 minutes to fire off the entire outfit. However, given her role as an escort - either she kills her opponent in 10 minutes or she is dead - she's not intended to fight sustained gun duels, more to kill submarines and light craft, or fight off small numbers of aircraft (1930s tactical doctrine)

Building her on a Type 1 Slip would under-utilize the slipway, but as it was more of a learning exercise, I am not worried about that. Also, I am less concerned about most efficient use of slipways than I am about building effective fighting units for a given tactical role.

I am still learning the foibles of Springsharp. What impact does 'Stability' have? The design is above the 1.0 breakpoint, and I quite catch the difference between a stability of 1.08 and 1.10. Likewise the hull strength - yes, more 'stuff' could be crammed into the hull, but could it all be worked under combat conditions and would such a ship we livable in real life?

Slip & dock lengths have also been modified with the addition of x.5 length slips and docks, which are half-way in between the original lengths (ie, 95m, 145m, 195m, 245m, etc).

The design rather reminds me of the WW German F-7 type escorts, though it's a bit smaller.

More stability give your ship more survivability.
Ship will not capsize easily.


As for the number of rounds 10 minutes of fire is enough for one battle in the second or third you will only have harsh words to throw at your enemy.

Then again my mind is always is European total war mind frame or Guadalcanal.
If You are planing to use this ship in Adriatic then You better have more shells.

In Wesworld the number of small attack boats, submarines and aircraft is high.

The only regions that are not a high density areas are south pacific and Antarctic coast.

I agree with Marek, you may have a few more 10 minute battles if she's escorting a convoy thats being harrassed by multipul subs. I'd up the ammo to 350 rounds or even higher if the design allows.

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
I agree with Marek, you may have a few more 10 minute battles if she's escorting a convoy thats being harrassed by multipul subs. I'd up the ammo to 350 rounds or even higher if the design allows.

I will see what changes can be made. There is a bit of reserve built in there. Of course, if she's the only escort against multiple submarines - well, one less escort

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
The historical ROF for the main armament is 15 rounds per minute - which gives her 10 minutes to fire off the entire outfit. However, given her role as an escort - either she kills her opponent in 10 minutes or she is dead - she's not intended to fight sustained gun duels, more to kill submarines and light craft, or fight off small numbers of aircraft (1930s tactical doctrine)

For this mission, I don't see a problem with the limited armament and small magazine capacity. Actually, I'd be tempted to trade off the forward superfiring 4" for another twin 40mm, but keep the same 4" magazine capacity (rearranged slightly, of course, but SpringSharp doesn't model that directly).

Quoted

Building her on a Type 1 Slip would under-utilize the slipway, but as it was more of a learning exercise, I am not worried about that. Also, I am less concerned about most efficient use of slipways than I am about building effective fighting units for a given tactical role.

That'll change once you start trying to fit things on slipways.

Quoted

I am still learning the foibles of Springsharp. What impact does 'Stability' have? The design is above the 1.0 breakpoint, and I quite catch the difference between a stability of 1.08 and 1.10. Likewise the hull strength - yes, more 'stuff' could be crammed into the hull, but could it all be worked under combat conditions and would such a ship we livable in real life?

As Marek said, increased stability improves the survivability of the ship. Basically, it's an indication of how easy the vessel is to capsize; I don't know how the SpringSharp stability index is calculated, but the metacentric height (the usual measure of initial stability) is quite low at 0.3 metres. About 5% of beam is a decent minimum for a ship of this size - that comes out at 0.4-0.5 metres.

On examining the sim, you've got a L/B ratio of 9.43:1. That's well into the destroyer range, and isn't really justified for a 24 knot, 1,000 ton ship. Since beam is one of the main determinants of stability, trading off length for beam would be a good course of action. It'll probably increase your powering requirements somewhat, but at 24 knots it probably won't be too severe. If machinery production were a constraint (it isn't in WesWorld) you could get away with reducing speed somewhat.

On the subject of machinery, a combined steam/diesel powerplant seems rather unusal for these power levels. Assuming that the diesels are for cruising power, that'll probably be two units of about 1,500 horsepower, which means about a 7,000 horsepower, two-shaft steam plant. If two turbines are provided, that'll be quite demanding of space; if only one, you'll have a splitter gearbox which doesn't make you popular with the marine engineers. I don't know why - gearboxes aren't my thing - but they're generally avoided.* Either way, you finish up with two different types of prime movers on one small ship, plus your generators. All I can think of is that this is a work creation scheme for marine engineers.

*On a side note, such a feature is being seriously considered for Type 26 in a CODLOG arrangement.

Quoted

Originally posted by RLBH

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
The historical ROF for the main armament is 15 rounds per minute - which gives her 10 minutes to fire off the entire outfit. However, given her role as an escort - either she kills her opponent in 10 minutes or she is dead - she's not intended to fight sustained gun duels, more to kill submarines and light craft, or fight off small numbers of aircraft (1930s tactical doctrine)

For this mission, I don't see a problem with the limited armament and small magazine capacity. Actually, I'd be tempted to trade off the forward superfiring 4" for another twin 40mm, but keep the same 4" magazine capacity (rearranged slightly, of course, but SpringSharp doesn't model that directly).

Quoted

Building her on a Type 1 Slip would under-utilize the slipway, but as it was more of a learning exercise, I am not worried about that. Also, I am less concerned about most efficient use of slipways than I am about building effective fighting units for a given tactical role.

That'll change once you start trying to fit things on slipways.

Quoted

I am still learning the foibles of Springsharp. What impact does 'Stability' have? The design is above the 1.0 breakpoint, and I quite catch the difference between a stability of 1.08 and 1.10. Likewise the hull strength - yes, more 'stuff' could be crammed into the hull, but could it all be worked under combat conditions and would such a ship we livable in real life?

As Marek said, increased stability improves the survivability of the ship. Basically, it's an indication of how easy the vessel is to capsize; I don't know how the SpringSharp stability index is calculated, but the metacentric height (the usual measure of initial stability) is quite low at 0.3 metres. About 5% of beam is a decent minimum for a ship of this size - that comes out at 0.4-0.5 metres.

On examining the sim, you've got a L/B ratio of 9.43:1. That's well into the destroyer range, and isn't really justified for a 24 knot, 1,000 ton ship. Since beam is one of the main determinants of stability, trading off length for beam would be a good course of action. It'll probably increase your powering requirements somewhat, but at 24 knots it probably won't be too severe. If machinery production were a constraint (it isn't in WesWorld) you could get away with reducing speed somewhat.

On the subject of machinery, a combined steam/diesel powerplant seems rather unusal for these power levels. Assuming that the diesels are for cruising power, that'll probably be two units of about 1,500 horsepower, which means about a 7,000 horsepower, two-shaft steam plant. If two turbines are provided, that'll be quite demanding of space; if only one, you'll have a splitter gearbox which doesn't make you popular with the marine engineers. I don't know why - gearboxes aren't my thing - but they're generally avoided.* Either way, you finish up with two different types of prime movers on one small ship, plus your generators. All I can think of is that this is a work creation scheme for marine engineers.

*On a side note, such a feature is being seriously considered for Type 26 in a CODLOG arrangement.

Thank you for all the excellent suggestions. I had not even caught the fact that I had two sets of machinery - which was not intended, just a fat finger.

I did the design as a learning exercise, and I am still learning from it.

I actually do have an image to accompany this, but would someone explain how I go about attaching it?

-----------


might need an upload account...

Quoted

Originally posted by ALVAMA
I actually do have an image to accompany this, but would someone explain how I go about attaching it?

-----------


might need an upload account...

I am still learning how best to do that; Marek gave me some pointers and yes, you will need an on-line stash for them.

But good to see you back on line