WesWorld

I'm at loss. I honestly have no idea what kind of ship is the best choice. 1920's I build a Torpedo cruiser, 1930's a panzershiff clone.

What too build? there are to be two ships build unlike the single Conrad.

My first idea is this

Dragon I, Poland Cruiser laid down 1940

Displacement:
11 793 t light; 12 457 t standard; 15 749 t normal; 18 383 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
713,20 ft / 705,38 ft x 72,18 ft x 19,69 ft (normal load)
217,38 m / 215,00 m x 22,00 m x 6,00 m

Armament:
12 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns (4x3 guns), 102,98lbs / 46,71kg shells, 1940 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4,33" / 110 mm guns (8x2 guns), 40,61lbs / 18,42kg shells, 1940 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
18 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns (6x3 guns), 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1940 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1 921 lbs / 871 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300
16 - 23,6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3,15" / 80 mm 451,44 ft / 137,60 m 10,20 ft / 3,11 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 98% of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
0,79" / 20 mm 451,44 ft / 137,60 m 18,08 ft / 5,51 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3,15" / 80 mm 1,57" / 40 mm 3,15" / 80 mm

- Armour deck: 1,57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 3,15" / 80 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 100 542 shp / 75 004 Kw = 32,49 kts
Range 15 000nm at 18,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5 926 tons

Complement:
702 - 913

Cost:
£5,949 million / $23,797 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 241 tons, 1,5%
Armour: 2 229 tons, 14,2%
- Belts: 608 tons, 3,9%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 238 tons, 1,5%
- Armament: 264 tons, 1,7%
- Armour Deck: 1 078 tons, 6,8%
- Conning Tower: 43 tons, 0,3%
Machinery: 2 688 tons, 17,1%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6 286 tons, 39,9%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3 956 tons, 25,1%
Miscellaneous weights: 349 tons, 2,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
29 193 lbs / 13 242 Kg = 283,5 x 5,9 " / 150 mm shells or 4,1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,40
Metacentric height 5,5 ft / 1,7 m
Roll period: 12,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,20
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,05

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,550
Length to Beam Ratio: 9,77 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30,20 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,20 ft / 8,90 m
- Forecastle (18%): 18,60 ft / 5,67 m
- Mid (50%): 18,60 ft / 5,67 m
- Quarterdeck (18%): 18,60 ft / 5,67 m
- Stern: 18,60 ft / 5,67 m
- Average freeboard: 19,37 ft / 5,90 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99,2%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 135,6%
Waterplane Area: 36 992 Square feet or 3 437 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 159%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 121 lbs/sq ft or 593 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1,13
- Longitudinal: 0,96
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

TT are on sides in quad mounts

This ship looks good on paper. It is a potent war machine.
It will hold its own versus a cruiser.
It will die fast when it meet any of the 20000t cruiser killers that are around.
Its torpedo salvo is a bit low for my taste 8 fish is what a destroyer can dish out. Conrad had 12 tubes broadside.

Second Idea
Dragon II, Poland Cruiser laid down 1940

Displacement:
5 720 t light; 5 980 t standard; 7 356 t normal; 8 456 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
598,02 ft / 590,55 ft x 59,06 ft x 16,40 ft (normal load)
182,28 m / 180,00 m x 18,00 m x 5,00 m

Armament:
6 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns (3x2 guns), 102,98lbs / 46,71kg shells, 1940 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
18 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in one mount, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1940 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mount
on side amidships, 6 raised guns
Weight of broadside 653 lbs / 296 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300
15 - 23,6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1,57" / 40 mm 0,79" / 20 mm 1,57" / 40 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 84 384 shp / 62 950 Kw = 35,00 kts
Range 10 000nm at 18,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2 477 tons

Complement:
396 - 516

Cost:
£3,586 million / $14,343 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 97 tons, 1,3%
Armour: 80 tons, 1,1%
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 80 tons, 1,1%
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
Machinery: 2 256 tons, 30,7%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 287 tons, 44,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 636 tons, 22,2%
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9 494 lbs / 4 307 Kg = 92,2 x 5,9 " / 150 mm shells or 1,3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,31
Metacentric height 3,7 ft / 1,1 m
Roll period: 13,0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,18
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,08

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,450
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27,91 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27,89 ft / 8,50 m
- Forecastle (20%): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Mid (50%): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Stern: 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Average freeboard: 20,34 ft / 6,20 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110,6%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 136,7%
Waterplane Area: 23 108 Square feet or 2 147 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 137%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 92 lbs/sq ft or 449 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,44
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

TT are on center line in quintuple mounts.

This one is basically a destroyer leader.
Armour is nonexistent. AA suit insufficient.
It Torpedo salvo of 15 tubes is what I like. 150mm automatic guns is somewhat optimistic.

Dragon I probably doesn't have enough beam to justify the torpedo bulkhead, and it's cramping the internal layout of the ship. Other than that, looks solid enough (I'd use the weight saved on the bulkhead and some of the misc weight for more armor).

Dragon II, I don't know that centerline tubes will work for a ship with that much beam. Kitikami had side-mounted tubes on a 14.2 meter beam, though she might have been able to use centerline tubes if desired. To do it on a 18m beam, though, you'd need to have most of the torpedo forward of the mount's pivot....

Personally I think Dragon I is too large given the main armament. Dragon II is quite affordable however and has an excellent speed and deadly torpedo loadout. I do agree with Hrolf though, the beam most likely might require side mounts rather than centerline mounts.

The range is probably a bit excessive for Poland. I'd think something more like 1000nm@30knts. I'd remove the anti-torpedo bulkhead and pile on speed up to around 35-36knts. It'll give a fairly useful unit for the Baltic.

Dragon I, in my opinion, is not a good ship for the Baltic. If Poland was a nation with a ocean coastline, it would be quite different. But, if you intend to build it, get rid of the TB. The armour is quite weak for a 11,000 ton ship, as well. Cut down on range, and then add some armour.

Dragon I. Where are you getting the Automatic Guns from? I doubt Poland can develop them, and you would have to ask RA for them otherwise. Also, no AA heavy guns. I would add some DP 110 mm's. Range is also excessive.

If I had to choose, I would choose Dragon II, although I would think a 9x6, or a 8x6, 8,000 ton ship would do better. In all sense, a treaty cruiser.

Range is not all that extensive considering that non of the ships can do 30kts for 100hours.

Baltic is sea that all ships all the time are within aviation and submarine area of operation.

also this two are only the far ends of the spectrum.
The Final Dragon will be a ship 5000t - 12000t with minimum of 8TT broadside, with minimum 72h at 25kt.

Here's a proposal, based on the Ersatz Karlsruhe's being built for the KM, but with armament modified to use types common in Polish service.


Lvov, Polish Light Cruiser laid down 1939

Displacement:
9,326 t light; 9,770 t standard; 11,215 t normal; 12,371 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
641.79 ft / 623.36 ft x 63.98 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
195.62 m / 190.00 m x 19.50 m x 6.00 m

Armament:
15 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (5x3 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1939 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns (6x2 guns), 40.61lbs / 18.42kg shells, 1939 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1939 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 2,063 lbs / 936 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 180
16 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 405.18 ft / 123.50 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 2.76" / 70 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.18" / 30 mm
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 77,647 shp / 57,925 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 3,600nm at 25.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,601 tons

Complement:
544 - 708

Cost:
£4.871 million / $19.483 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 258 tons, 2.3 %
Armour: 2,498 tons, 22.3 %
- Belts: 917 tons, 8.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 511 tons, 4.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,006 tons, 9.0 %
- Conning Tower: 64 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 2,101 tons, 18.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,375 tons, 39.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,889 tons, 16.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 95 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,025 lbs / 7,723 Kg = 165.3 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 14.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.35
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.74 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 17.22 ft / 5.25 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.22 ft / 5.25 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.22 ft / 5.25 m
- Stern: 17.22 ft / 5.25 m
- Average freeboard: 17.95 ft / 5.47 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108.4 %
Waterplane Area: 27,632 Square feet or 2,567 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 127 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 108 lbs/sq ft or 527 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.07
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

55 tons reserved for growth

40 tons reserved for reload torpedoes

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
Here's a proposal, based on the Ersatz Karlsruhe's being built for the KM, but with armament modified to use types common in Polish service.

I think Hrolf's proposal is a good one, honestly. Much better than the weakly-armoured ships proposed above. In the Baltic I'd probably limit my designs to around 4,000-5,000 tons maximum, but for a large ship, the Karlsruhe is solid and well-proven.

Bulgaria's in a similar situation in the Black Sea. Long ranged aircraft can cover virtually 100% of my prospective operation zone, so the Bulgarians are increasingly designing excessively fast ships with high cruise speeds, fairly low overall ranges, and strong anti-aircraft batteries. The mission for 1940 is the development of the three pillars of coast-defense: night torpedo forces, mine warfare forces, and small coastal submarines. (Thus, my recent spate of shipbuilding: the Kyustendil-class contradestroyers meet the first category, the Komitadji-class minelayers the second, and the Delfi-class submarines the third.)

Lvov is a nice design.
How ever I like to drop C 150mm turret and and more main gun shells and two more 110mm mounts.
Stern chase and chasing small ships will be the most likely action that this ship will fight so one extra turret will be a dead weight.

@ Brockpaine.
Bulgarian analogy is a good one but not ideal.
Bulgaria will face Turkey and Russia
Poland will Germany Russia and Nordmark.
Bulgaria has about 4 times the coastline Poland dose.
Your three pillars are here also, But a heavy Torpedo force with Dragon(however it end up looking) in the lead.
Mine warfare with ships like the recently build Kuter class.
And medium range subs. I decided to go with mid range submarines as when any one enemy will cripple polish navy by day 3 of the war. Mid range sub with 30-60 days range will be a treat for two months coastal one for a week, as it will run out of fuel. Big gun ship is a job for the Deutschland class battleships. Yes they are old but there job will be supplemented by shore batteries on Hel

Actually, Bulgaria is facing Romania and Russia in the Black Sea, they are allied with the Turks. And a serious conflict between either of those two powers is unlikely with the current players.

As requested, 12 15cm and 16 11cm guns, the range was increased to 4000 nm @ 25 knots, and an extra 0.5 knots of top speed were worked in.

Lvov, Polish Light Cruiser laid down 1939

Displacement:
9,183 t light; 9,616 t standard; 11,215 t normal; 12,494 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
631.56 ft / 623.36 ft x 63.98 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
192.50 m / 190.00 m x 19.50 m x 6.00 m

Armament:
12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x3 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1939 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns (8x2 guns), 40.61lbs / 18.42kg shells, 1939 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1939 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,917 lbs / 869 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 180
16 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 405.18 ft / 123.50 m 9.61 ft / 2.93 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 2.76" / 70 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.18" / 30 mm
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 82,466 shp / 61,520 Kw = 32.50 kts
Range 4,000nm at 25.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,878 tons

Complement:
544 - 708

Cost:
£4.858 million / $19.434 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 240 tons, 2.1 %
Armour: 2,280 tons, 20.3 %
- Belts: 768 tons, 6.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 443 tons, 3.9 %
- Armour Deck: 1,006 tons, 9.0 %
- Conning Tower: 64 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 2,231 tons, 19.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,357 tons, 38.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,032 tons, 18.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 75 tons, 0.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,752 lbs / 7,599 Kg = 162.7 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 13.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.74 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.89 ft / 8.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.86 ft / 5.75 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.22 ft / 5.25 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.22 ft / 5.25 m
- Stern: 17.22 ft / 5.25 m
- Average freeboard: 18.52 ft / 5.65 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 110.7 %
Waterplane Area: 27,632 Square feet or 2,567 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 128 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 107 lbs/sq ft or 521 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.10
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

35 tons reserved for growth

40 tons reserved for reload torpedoes

I would get one of the Karlsruhe's, but I prefer my 4,500 ton 6x6 design.

Lvov now is a great ship from my point of view.

I still have a problem what kind of unit do I require.
I don't mind it being big with 5 factories I can put two cruisers of 12000t cruisers with ease. This ship will draw fire like a magnet, It will be leading a DD squadron so obviously larger displacment is desired big fuel tanks give it extra buoyancy.

Second try on 12 gun version.

DragonIII, Poland Cruiser laid down 1941

Displacement:
12 193 t light; 12 815 t standard; 15 059 t normal; 16 855 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
729,71 ft / 721,78 ft x 62,34 ft x 21,65 ft (normal load)
222,41 m / 220,00 m x 19,00 m x 6,60 m

Armament:
12 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns (4x3 guns), 102,98lbs / 46,71kg shells, 1941 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4,33" / 110 mm guns (8x2 guns), 40,61lbs / 18,42kg shells, 1941 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 4,33" / 110 mm guns (2x2 guns), 40,61lbs / 18,42kg shells, 1941 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
24 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns (8x3 guns), 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1941 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2 095 lbs / 950 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
16 - 23,6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6,30" / 160 mm 384,42 ft / 117,17 m 9,48 ft / 2,89 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 82% of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5,51" / 140 mm 3,15" / 80 mm 5,51" / 140 mm
2nd: 0,79" / 20 mm 0,79" / 20 mm -
3rd: 0,79" / 20 mm 0,79" / 20 mm -

- Armour deck: 2,17" / 55 mm, Conning tower: 5,51" / 140 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 113 720 shp / 84 835 Kw = 34,00 kts
Range 3 000nm at 30,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4 039 tons

Complement:
679 - 883

Cost:
£6,599 million / $26,395 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 262 tons, 1,7%
Armour: 2 864 tons, 19,0%
- Belts: 972 tons, 6,5%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 522 tons, 3,5%
- Armour Deck: 1 298 tons, 8,6%
- Conning Tower: 72 tons, 0,5%
Machinery: 3 005 tons, 20,0%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 786 tons, 38,4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 866 tons, 19,0%
Miscellaneous weights: 276 tons, 1,8%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21 675 lbs / 9 832 Kg = 210,5 x 5,9 " / 150 mm shells or 2,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,20
Metacentric height 3,5 ft / 1,1 m
Roll period: 14,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,39
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,05

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,541
Length to Beam Ratio: 11,58 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30,20 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,56 ft / 9,01 m
- Forecastle (23%): 18,80 ft / 5,73 m
- Mid (50%): 18,80 ft / 5,73 m
- Quarterdeck (23%): 18,80 ft / 5,73 m
- Stern: 18,80 ft / 5,73 m
- Average freeboard: 19,81 ft / 6,04 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81,9%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117,9%
Waterplane Area: 32 410 Square feet or 3 011 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 134%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 116 lbs/sq ft or 565 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1,07
- Longitudinal: 0,97
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

40 tons reserved for torpedo reloads

237 tons reserved for growth.

@TheCanadian
By Romania you mean the PRJ.
No conflict in Europe is likely.Two powers that can start it with any chance of success are Hrolf and AdmK bought to level headed for that. If they do, boom there goes me as an active player.

Quoted

Originally posted by TexanCowboy
I would get one of the Karlsruhe's, but I prefer my 4,500 ton 6x6 design.

I like that idea too so that is why there are the alternative.

I still like Hrolfs approach, smaller and cheaper with similar weapons. Seems like a better design for Poland who has only 5 factory's. I know you think you can afford it (I know with Turkey as a 6 factory nation) but you may wish to refit/repair other ships or build other things.

Quoted

Originally posted by Marek Gutkowski
@TheCanadian
By Romania you mean the PRJ.

I believe he means Romania vs. Bulgaria and was not addressing the respective alliances.

Quoted

Originally posted by TheCanadian
Actually, Bulgaria is facing Romania and Russia in the Black Sea, they are allied with the Turks. And a serious conflict between either of those two powers is unlikely with the current players.

Romania and Bulgaria are on pretty solid terms despite some, ah, mutual competition. Bulgaria is a bit skeptical of Poland's recent imperial adventurings and wouldn't mind seeing Yugoslavia get the axe; but Romania seems genuinely interested in being a Good Neighbor, and so Bulgaria extends the same courtesy in return.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
...Bulgaria is a bit skeptical of Poland's recent imperial adventurings...

Poland is a japing dog that no one takes seriously.
They have a inferiority complex being sandwiched between ,what they see as,two greatest European powers.
They also think they are better that everybody minus big guys they have land border with, although Romania is considered equals.

Dragon III is, IMO, too big for it's armament: it has good speed, and the armor's definitely better than the Dragon I's, but it's almost the size of an Admiral Hipper.

If you're looking for DD leaders, I'd go smaller, down under 3000 tons. They'll be fast, cheap, and better suited to DD operations than a ship the size of Lvov or Dragon I or III.

This is a repeat of Conrad class half a knot faster and one DP turret added.

DragonIV, Poland Cruiser laid down 1940

Displacement:
6 270 t light; 6 505 t standard; 7 366 t normal; 8 054 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
565,22 ft / 557,74 ft x 59,06 ft x 18,37 ft (normal load)
172,28 m / 170,00 m x 18,00 m x 5,60 m

Armament:
12 - 4,33" / 110 mm guns (6x2 guns), 40,61lbs / 18,42kg shells, 1940 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 511 lbs / 232 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300
21 - 23,6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2,36" / 60 mm 379,27 ft / 115,60 m 9,22 ft / 2,81 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 0,79" / 20 mm 379,27 ft / 115,60 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 105% of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1,57" / 40 mm 0,79" / 20 mm -

- Armour deck: 1,18" / 30 mm, Conning tower: 2,36" / 60 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 80 243 shp / 59 861 Kw = 34,50 kts
Range 2 800nm at 25,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1 550 tons

Complement:
396 - 516

Cost:
£3,441 million / $13,763 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 64 tons, 0,9%
Armour: 963 tons, 13,1%
- Belts: 440 tons, 6,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 36 tons, 0,5%
- Armour Deck: 468 tons, 6,4%
- Conning Tower: 19 tons, 0,3%
Machinery: 2 146 tons, 29,1%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 966 tons, 40,3%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 096 tons, 14,9%
Miscellaneous weights: 131 tons, 1,8%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
10 118 lbs / 4 590 Kg = 249,2 x 4,3 " / 110 mm shells or 1,4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,34
Metacentric height 3,8 ft / 1,2 m
Roll period: 12,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,13
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,05

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,426
Length to Beam Ratio: 9,44 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27,34 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27,89 ft / 8,50 m
- Forecastle (16%): 20,01 ft / 6,10 m
- Mid (50%): 18,70 ft / 5,70 m
- Quarterdeck (16%): 18,70 ft / 5,70 m
- Stern: 17,72 ft / 5,40 m
- Average freeboard: 19,56 ft / 5,96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104,2%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 87,0%
Waterplane Area: 21 411 Square feet or 1 989 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 125%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 89 lbs/sq ft or 434 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,95
- Longitudinal: 1,53
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

80tons for torpedo reloads

51tons reserved for growth

This ship as currently a the best guess for what will be build.
Now all I have to do I find a second type 2 slip to laid down two at a time.

NOOOOO!!!! Decent ship. I would say it's perfect for the Baltic, with the torpedo armerment. My only concern is 21+ unprotected torpedoes. A single 5'' shot could blow at least three at a time to hell.

That's true of any torpedo. It's why you launch them all before you get into a gunfight.