WesWorld

Undisclosed location in Bahrain, 0500hrs, January 17th 1938

Prime Minister Singh and his staff reached the small villa under a veil of secrecy. Singh, brisk but nervous, was received by the British Colonial Secretary Ormsby-Gore who saids in very poor Bharati: "Welcome to Bahrain."

At least he tried, he thought while extending his hand. "Good to see you again, Minister," he lied. He turned to the side, "May I present you the Persian Ambassador the Court of Bahrat," a portly man in a western style suit moved forward and extended his hand while Minister Singh continued,"Ambassador Ahmed Rafsanjani."

"A pleasure to meet," lied Ormsby-Gore while the Persian Ambassador did the same with his response of "the pleasure is mine."

Singh then asked, "Should we go inside? there is a lot to discuss"

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Undisclosed location in Bahrain, 1712hrs, January 20th 1938

The three men stood from the table. They finally decided to end the meetings, all tired of the long four days of discussions. While they went thru the formalities of goodbyes, the British Colonial Secretary summed it all in one sentence. "Sometimes, Prime Minister, you have to give some to get some."

British Army Barracks, Hadiboh, Socotra, 0930hrs, January 25th 1938

Both the Bharati Prime Minister and the British Foreign Minister arranged the meeting. The two distinct politicians brought the rival commanders together on what they considered an out of the way location. At last both men were going to get the officers to agree to a new plan of attack.

Officers from both sides eyed each other with suspicion. All of then have trained all their lives to fight the other side and their training was still showing in their dislike for the other side. But now they all sat in the same table, in a meeting arranged by politicians, to reach the terms on which they will work together to resolve some situations.

In the report presented to the officers by the senior British Intelligence officer, Brigadier Orde Wingate, it was clear the enemy was unprepared to what was coming their way. He stated that "while having by a large quantity of small arms and machine-guns their lack of any considerable heavier weapons will be their demise."

The senior Intelligence man thought the enemy troops in the majority of cases lacked experience and they were badly led except in some small circumstances. It was at this point he presented his recommendation that the British should be in charge of the overall operation. That caused a ruckus on the Bharati side and large part of the rest of the day was spent trying to reach a a compromise between the parts.

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British Army Barracks, Hadiboh, Socotra, 1112hrs, January 27th 1938

After cover two days of deliberations a plan was in place. The overall command of the joint operation would be the British highest ranking officer, Major General Richard O’Conner, who will also lead the land portion of the operation, but the sea portion would be under the command of the Bharati Admiral Verghese.

All details have being covered, even to the minimal details, like joint radio frequencies and recognition signs. The players are ready for their stage.

Excerpts from radio report by Bharati Broadcasting System, January 28th 1938

"....fighting continues in Persia, with what it seems no end in sight. An unidentifed representative of the Foreign Office has stated the loyal faction(1) controls the city of Tehran at this time but other parts of the country are still dangerous for travelers. The same official stated an offer to the loyal faction for troops and equipment has being rejected at this time, but the door was left open to respond to any request if the Persians change their minds."

"...atrocites continue to be reported in the Kingdom of Eastern Baluchistan...the Foreign Office sent a message asking for restrain..."

"...border incident occurred near the Khyber Pass, when arms smugglers were found bringing weapons into Bharat... the Foreign Office presented their protest to the Afghan Government in what they consider a violation of the Penshawar Agreement.."

(1) faction that accepts the Indian Raj as the successor of the Shah.

Excerpts from the radio news broadcast by the Bharati Brocasting System, February 7th, 1938.

"...the city of Esfahan in Persia was captured yesterday by the loyal faction to His Highness after being declared an open city by the followers of the Ayatollah Karmani...officials stated the enemy soldiers left the city to save the civilian population of the suffering that a siege of the city could..."

"...our glorious troops continue their advance into Baluchistan to bring peace to the region, with limited support by a small British detachment. The Foreign Office stated the expected result is to put a responsible government in place. Asked about how long Bharati troops will remain in Baluchistan the spokeman stated that..."

"...His Highness left Hyderabad today for a long vacation on a undisclosed location. We hope he gets the rest..."

BNS Administrative Command HQ, Madras, 10:12hrs, February 27th 1938

“Sir, the lost of the Varanasi was completely unexpected. The ship went down too deep for proper examination of the cause of the loss. At least we got a small measure of revenge by sinking the Kaveh.”

"Did we?" asked Fleet Admiral Kashiram Paswan, commander of the BNS. He knew perfectly well that a heavy cruiser with less than seven years of service was a poor tradeoff for a 32 year old battered armored cruiser.

Vice Admiral Verghese looked around uncomfortably. "Sir, if you so desire you can have my resignation immediately."

“Don’t be a fool, old friend. We as always underestimated the capabilities of the Persians and we paid for our mistakes. Just make sure this never occurs again and with our new friends that should not happen,” responded Paswan as he motioned in the direction of the new man, a man wearing the uniform of the Persian Navy, sitting on the table.

“Your opinion, Admiral Fakoor?

“Sir, Our fleet has being vastly reduced by the ongoing problems in my country. We have a majority of the modern units but by bad luck the two most powerful destroyers in our fleet now sit on the other side. The arrival of the Karkas (1) helps but we have to admit that by ourselves we will not be able to defeat the threat the rebels represent to shipping in the Gulf. At least the lack of fuel is keeping them in port. But we need the funds to built more powerful ships"

“Let me be frank with you,” responded Paswan, “By orders of His Highness the Raj and your Shah," Paswas stressed the word Shah, "the Persian fleet will be nominally independent but we all know that in practice your fleet eventually will be turned into an extension of ours.”

A pervasive silence settled over the room as the implications of that statement sunk in, before Fakoor broke the silence.

“We expected that. Our resources for naval construction are very limited and we wasted our measly resources before in some prestige projects. We only hope we now have a purpose and a reasoning in our construction."

“And you will. Let me assure you even money will be available for some prestige projects. You will see,” responded Paswan. “For example, we consider an increase on the size of your submarine fleet would be beneficial to all. Of course the guise of independence should be kept so it would for the best if you or your subordinates make the inquiries in respect to the acquisition of adequate designs.”

“Sounds reasonable, Sir. We will start our inquiries as soon as this meeting is over,” responded Fakoor.

Paswan smiled, “Good. Gentlemen, can we move on to other issues?

(1) the small carrier conversion from the former Bharati cruiser Jaipur.

No surprise here. Looks like Persia will become a "Warsaw Pact" navy for India.

Still, having seen what Perdedor's put together for other navies, I have the feeling it will be well balanced and quality.

Quoted

Originally stated by Admiral Fakoor
The arrival of the Karkas (1) helps but we have to admit that by ourselves we will not be able to defeat the threat the rebels represent to shipping in the Gulf.

Really? I'd actually give the Loyalists the decided upper hand, unless they play their cards stupidly and get wiped out in detail. The Burijas-class is quite impressive for a destroyer, but they don't have the staying power that the Vouruskashas and the Isfahans have in surface combat. The Nationalist squadron could perhaps hope to sally on occasion to try to defeat the Loyalists in detail - like the High Seas Fleet at Jutland - but if the Loyalists stay together and don't make any stupid errors, then they'll probably have a good chance of winning. Of course, JMHO, and the chances of war mean the Nationalists could still get an upset victory...

Of course if the full Indian Navy enters the picture, the Nationalists are Doomed. Doomy-doomy-doomed.

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99
The arrival of the Karkas (1) helps

Was there a note that was supposed to be attached to this?

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
No surprise here. Looks like Persia will become a "Warsaw Pact" navy for India.

Still, having seen what Perdedor's put together for other navies, I have the feeling it will be well balanced and quality.

Quoted

Originally stated by Admiral Fakoor
The arrival of the Karkas (1) helps but we have to admit that by ourselves we will not be able to defeat the threat the rebels represent to shipping in the Gulf.

Really? I'd actually give the Loyalists the decided upper hand, unless they play their cards stupidly and get wiped out in detail. The Burijas-class is quite impressive for a destroyer, but they don't have the staying power that the Vouruskashas and the Isfahans have in surface combat. The Nationalist squadron could perhaps hope to sally on occasion to try to defeat the Loyalists in detail - like the High Seas Fleet at Jutland - but if the Loyalists stay together and don't make any stupid errors, then they'll probably have a good chance of winning. Of course, JMHO, and the chances of war mean the Nationalists could still get an upset victory...

Of course if the full Indian Navy enters the picture, the Nationalists are Doomed. Doomy-doomy-doomed.

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99
The arrival of the Karkas (1) helps

Was there a note that was supposed to be attached to this?

Well, the Persian was overestimating the threat to try to get more from the Bharatis. As you can see he failed.

In regard to the Karkas I forgot to add the note. Not once but twice. Thanks for reminding me to add the note.

Aha.

Excerpts from the radio news broadcast by the Bharati Broadcasting System, February 26th, 1938.

"...officially was announced the city of Quetta has being liberated from the followers of the Khan of Kalat by our gallant soldiers, according by sources from the Ministry of War. However, same sources indicated resistance still exist in some parts of Baluchistan but is expected the remaining..."

"...the 47th Infantry Division and the 14th Jagganatha arrived to the port city of Bandar Abbas to help the Persians loyal to the Raj bring a conclusion to the current troubles in that nation. Lt General Muhammad Ali Singar has being announced as the commander of the Bharati forces in Persia, named the Bharati Relief Assemblage..."

Excerpts from the radio news broadcast by the Bharati Broadcasting System, March 17th, 1938.

"...the British Lt. General Wavell and our own Lt. General Thomas Kureekkal gave a joint press conference in Quetta today. During the press conference General Wavell stated 'the main purpose of the joint operation was to bring peace to the troubled nation of Baluchistan and that has being achieved in record time thanks to our cooperation in all levels.' General Kureekkal stated that indeed that was the case and 'now we are jointly taking the steps to bring a competent government into place.' The interaction between the two officers during the interview seemed to a cordial one, with both officers departing together for a meeting with leaders of the Muslim League. In other news on the region, the stalemate continues in the ongoing Persian troubles. the Foreign Office has stated that the situation is an internal Persian affair and Bharat has to respect their wishes. Many have wondered so far why..."

Excerpts from the radio news broadcast by the Bharati Broadcasting System, April 6th, 1938.

"...and the Foreign Office states their recognition of the results of the election in Baluchistan and extends their recognition to the Muslim Republic of Baluchistan. It was express that for now both British and Bharati troops will stay in that country to safeguard the security of the new nation till a new Self Defense Force could be raised to protect the young nation. Also the wherebouts of the deposed Khan of Kalat are unknown at this time but is suspected that he's currently in..."

"...the Foreign Office stated today that thru the proper channels the Dutch Government indicated their intent to redeploy some of their naval units(1) in the Ocean of Bharat to the Middle East area as a response to the reported attacks to neutral shipping. The Foreign Office indicated they are on their right to protect their shipping but to please ensure to report their intended routes to both the British and Bharati commands in the region to ensure no accidents occur..."

(1) they are already on the way. It's just look in indian propaganda if we say the Dutch asked first.

BNS Administrative Command HQ, Madras, 10:22hrs, April 14th 1938

Saifuddeen Chowdhury Kanchon, the Admiral in charge of Fleet Requirement and Planning Board spoke, “Admiral Paswan, the Delhi class armored cruisers, the I-32 class submarines, the emergency carrier conversion of a liner and the refit of the Lucknow are expected to be completed by December.”

"Very good.” Answered Kashiram Paswan, Fleet Admiral of the BNS, who then asked, “How the new agreements will affect us?

Chowdhury response was to the point. "Sir, in the short run not at all. Two more ships of the Satyaki class were lay down earlier this month but that will be the bulk of our new construction till the end of the year. Then it will be when the first effect could be discerned.”

"We projected to lay down the first of the Hyderabad class armored cruisers late on the year. Now can lay down the Hyderabad armored cruisers as they were indented to be, without the subterfuge of them being heavy cruisers; the problem is that in the latest agreement with the British for them to be counted in our capital ship quota. By treaty were are allowed to reach 35% of the size of the British fleet and in regard to capital ships that equals eight ships of the line. We already have the Akbars, the Shah Jihan and the two Delhis being counted as capital ships. That is were the decision needs to be made. Do we want to built three Hyderabads and fill our allotted quota with a very capable ship but not truly a capital ship or the money should be better spend in construction of larger ships?

“I assume you’ve have seen the projected budgets for the next five years?” asked Paswan as he motioned for one of his aides to hand copies of the budgets to all officers present.

“No need to give a copy, Sir. I’ve already read it,” responded Chowdhury.

“Your opinion, Admiral?”

“I'm divided on it, Admiral. The Hyderabads are very good ships, well armed and protected for their size and capable of independent operations. But the current trends are showing that other nations are building ever larger ships than our Akbars or the Shah Jihan. Do we want to be saddled with 280mm and 350mm armed ships when the rest of the World is moving into the 400mm and above realm? Could we better served by building a 40000 ton battleship instead of three Hyderabads?"

“Could a compromise work better?,” added Vice Admiral Verghese, commander of the North Western Naval District. “Why not built two Hyderabads and leave the final allotted spot for a larger battleship further down the road?”

The discussion started immediately, with the Big-Gun enthusiast asking for three 40000 large battleships to be budgeted instead of the Hyderabads while other supported the compromise presented by Verghese. After close to two hours of discussions Admiral Paswan raised his hand to bring all present to silence. Silence settled over the room as all waited for their commander to finally speak on the subjec.

“It will be great to be possible to built three 410mm armed battleships but I guess many of you are ignoring the budget reports in front of you. Embarking in that road could tie our budget for the rest of the decade and the better part of the next. It will make our budget too rigid and incapable to respond to emergencies. As you all now we already projected a repeat of the Kudligis (1) for later this year and some minesweepers are being included in next year budget, all this in response to the Persian problem.”

“Also, you may recall, the new treaty includes a provision were the Royal Navy is bound to help the BNS in case of an attack by any foreign power. While in my opinion the current British battleships in the region don’t amount to much (2) the arrival of further British ships from other theaters is another story. Those ships are closer in speed to our current battle line and in case of war they should be counted as powerful allies. Also the South African fleet can be counted in time of trouble. That is another point to take in consideration to make adecision in this regard.”

“As such I have decided to follow the path presented by Vice Admiral Verghese. Two Hyderabads will be lay down with the construction of a larger battleship being approved after further studies are made to find a design that fits our strategic and tactical needs. (3)We also have to remember that the British are embarked in an expansion of their capital ships, which could traduce into the number of ships we can build will increase in the future.”

The majority of the heads nodded in agreement but some just sat, shuffling their papers or something else, not too happy with the decision being made. Paswan didn’t care. His decision was made and nothing will change it for now.

(1) Escort ships.
(2) IIRC two un-refitted R class battleships.
(3) The Samanjir. Studies of the current Bharati tactics were tied to the lessons past by the SAE fleet in their just concluded war. But is not the 410mm the Big Gun guys wanted. that is further down the road.

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99
BNS Administrative Command HQ, Madras, 10:22hrs, April 14th 1938
“Also, you may recall, the new treaty includes a provision were the Royal Navy is bound to help the BNS in case of an attack by any foreign power. While in my opinion the current British battleships in the region don’t amount to much (2) the arrival of the two Canadian battlecruisers is another story. Those ships are closer in speed to our current battle line and in case of war they should be counted as powerful allies. I hope they stay for a long while in the region. That is another point to take in consideration to make decision in this regard.”

At which point some forgotten and unnamed minion in unsightly spectacles would likely try and remind the Admirals that while they have a treaty and nominal alliance with the British and Australians, they have neither with the Canadians.

Irregardless, it would not be prudent to base fleet projections and build plans on the assumption that two foreign battlecruisers may or may not remain in the region, and may or may not assist the navy in a crisis.

Should an Intelligence specialist on the Canadians be consulted, a likely conclusion would be that Canada is unlikely to maintain half of it's capital ships at a distant station for a prolonged period without a compelling reason or crisis to prevent them from returning to Esquimalt once operations in Baluchistan are stabilized and concluded.

The Abuse treaty pretty much spell the British Empire will give all kind of help to the Empire of Bharat. As long as I know Canada is part of the British Empire as a member of the Commonwealth. Or Canada is saying that if the British Empire calls they will refuse the call from their King? I don't recall nothing different to the Westminster Accord in WW, so the British King is still the Monarch.

Also the Baluchistan treaty adds that British Commonwealth will be in the region permanently. That implies that Commonwealth ships also will be in the region for a while to support those troops. Not the R & R's all the time but ships nevertheless. Or the troops in the region will be left to their own resources?

Is the other way around the way we see it. Canada and Australia are being tied to the region by this treaty. I don't know who negotiated with the British for the Commonwealth but that was presented to me, I didn't ask for it to sign the Baluchi agreement.

And the same way a Canadain fleet crossed half the world to support the British Empire in far away Baluchistan if the British Government ask them to stay for a little longer, will they refuse?

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99
BNS Administrative Command HQ, Madras, 10:22hrs, April 14th 1938
“Also, you may recall, the new treaty includes a provision were the Royal Navy is bound to help the BNS in case of an attack by any foreign power. While in my opinion the current British battleships in the region don’t amount to much (2) the arrival of the two Canadian battlecruisers is another story. Those ships are closer in speed to our current battle line and in case of war they should be counted as powerful allies. I hope they stay for a long while in the region. That is another point to take in consideration to make decision in this regard.”

At which point some forgotten and unnamed minion in unsightly spectacles would likely try and remind the Admirals that while they have a treaty and nominal alliance with the British and Australians, they have neither with the Canadians.

Irregardless, it would not be prudent to base fleet projections and build plans on the assumption that two foreign battlecruisers may or may not remain in the region, and may or may not assist the navy in a crisis.

Should an Intelligence specialist on the Canadians be consulted, a likely conclusion would be that Canada is unlikely to maintain half of it's capital ships at a distant station for a prolonged period without a compelling reason or crisis to prevent them from returning to Esquimalt once operations in Baluchistan are stabilized and concluded.

Canada (And Australia) is part of the Commonwealth; The British Empire (More accurately, the United Kingdom at this point) is the British Isles and it's non-independant territory around the world. The Statute of Westminster (And the Balfour declaration preceeding it) basically states that Canada and Australia conduct their own, independant foreign relations and are not bound to anything the British sign, unless they assent and sign on their own. Case in point with the Versailles (Historical and WW) and Cleito treaties.

Through the Commonwealth Canada (and Australia) has arrangements with the Crown relating to mutual defense of the realm, and technically would be obligated to any command from the Crown through the local Governor-General. However, in practice Canada and Australia are politically equal partners of the Commonwealth at this juncture, not subordinates (The British still carry more weight to the table, but that's another issue).

This all culminates in something of a technicality, but one that should not be ignored by other powers; Canada and Australia conduct their own foreign relations and national defense policy, albiet with close coordination with the British for various reasons. Through that closer-than-normal relations, signified by the retention of a common Monarch and other issues, Canada, Australia, and Great Britain are generally comitted to assist and support each other, but it is not an issue of the British setting policy for the other two to follow.

If the British request Canadian assistance in the Indian Ocean (Or elsewhere), that will be a matter between the British and Canada. Canada has signed no treaty nor do they have any other form of agreement with India (Or other powers, beyond NATO, SEAR, and the Non-agression pact with Nordmark), and is under no compulsion at present to do anything on their behalf.

In short, if a Canadian hasn't signed it, Canada isn't bound to it. This does not mean Canada will go out of it's way to cause trouble for Indo-British relations (or anywhere else), but it is a fallacy for Indian naval planning to assume that Canadian military assets are at their disposal. Nor is it prudent to assume Canada plans to station it's assets in the region indefinately regardless of the previous issue.

Wait? WHAT?!?!?!?

Australia is most certainly not required to defend India or Indian concerns at ANY point in time.

And might we reminds the Indians that India is tied, first to RAN size, secondly to 35% RN. Not the other way around. So any new aircraft carriers or capital ships by India will be illegal per the treaty, untill the time that Australia gets around to building more of each.

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
Wait? WHAT?!?!?!?

Australia is most certainly not required to defend India or Indian concerns at ANY point in time.

And might we reminds the Indians that India is tied, first to RAN size, secondly to 35% RN. Not the other way around. So any new aircraft carriers or capital ships by India will be illegal per the treaty, untill the time that Australia gets around to building more of each.

read the treaty. Is the other way around. Parts 15 and 16, Bahrat fleet will be the same size as Australia expect if conflict with part 15. The only conflict is capital ships.

Also, who negotiated with the British in regard to Baluchistan for the Commonwealth? And the Abuse treaty says the British Empire will help Bharat in case of bieng attacked? So if Great Britain calls for help they will refuse? This look to me more like cracks in the Commonwelath than anything else.

Oh, I read it...

Quoted

§15 The Empire of Bharat agrees to limit their Fleet to 35% of the size of the Royal Navy with the exception of aircraft carriers, amphibious operations ship, escort ships, antisubmarine ships and minor units. The Empire of Bharat will be limited to three fleet carriers and two light carriers at any given time, with any excess being either scrapped or being moved to secondary roles. The Empire of Bharat amphibious capabilities will be frozen to the numbers by February 1st 1939 until February 1st 1949, with any new construction forcing the scrapping of a similar numbers of units. Escort, antisubmarine and minor units will be free of limits.

§16 The Empire of Bharat agrees to limit their Fleet to the size of the Australian Fleet, except when is not in conflict with §15 above . In such cases the British Empire will serve as final arbiter of any conflict caused by differences between §16 and §15.

It's pretty clear, India is the one limited.

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
Oh, I read it...

Quoted

§15 The Empire of Bharat agrees to limit their Fleet to 35% of the size of the Royal Navy with the exception of aircraft carriers, amphibious operations ship, escort ships, antisubmarine ships and minor units. The Empire of Bharat will be limited to three fleet carriers and two light carriers at any given time, with any excess being either scrapped or being moved to secondary roles. The Empire of Bharat amphibious capabilities will be frozen to the numbers by February 1st 1939 until February 1st 1949, with any new construction forcing the scrapping of a similar numbers of units. Escort, antisubmarine and minor units will be free of limits.

§16 The Empire of Bharat agrees to limit their Fleet to the size of the Australian Fleet, except when is not in conflict with §15 above . In such cases the British Empire will serve as final arbiter of any conflict caused by differences between §16 and §15.

It's pretty clear, India is the one limited.

No. The way it reads is same as Australia, but if in conflict with being same size as Australia then is point 15 what takes precedence.
Read it. What is being expected is if being the size of the Australian fleet conflicts with Point 15, not the other way around.

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99
Is the other way around the way we see it. Canada and Australia are being tied to the region by this treaty.

India is welcome to make any assumption it wants, but won't have much of a leg to stand on when they say "Jump" and Canada says "Sod off, eh?"

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99
I don't know who negotiated with the British for the Commonwealth but that was presented to me, I didn't ask for it to sign the Baluchi agreement.

Uh, you negotiated with the British. The British consulted with Australia and Canada, but Canada hasn't signed anything and isn't bound to anything at this juncture. You have that naval limitations treaty with the Aussies and British, but that's between y'all, not us. -Quietly buys a slew of battleships from British yards for a nickel-