WesWorld

Edit Note The Board clock went funky, and this reply got shunted to the top of the thread.

Here's a more controversial concept kicking about;
the RCN currently has 15 S class DDs, with another 16 optioned from the RN. The entire class is beyond block obsolencence, but due to limitations in dockspace, Canada cannot produce more than 8 Tribal-sized destroyers per year, which is not sufficient to fill all the Destroyer-level needs of the RCN without keeping the S class on the rolls for the forseeable future. A refit is required (since even though the ships are rated for 34 knots, I have vast doubts any of the class are capable of obtaining those speeds anymore), and unfortunately, it is only possible to obtain fleet speeds at the expense of armament due to Springsharp limitations regarding high-speed ships.

As such, the proposed refit is intended to enable the S class to continue operating with the battlefleet untill enough Fleet Destroyers are in service to replace them, and then rotate them to secondary duties to serve out the rest of their service lives. While their main armament is admittedly light, there is a benefit in there being 31 ships availible to the RCN for modernization, at the rate of 8 per quarter; However, it is more likely that only 20-24 ships will actually be converted and retained.

Modernization will consist primarily of replacing worn out machinery with a new power plant, landing the midships 4" gun for an octuple 2pndr, expanding the Torpedo capacity from 2 twin launchers to 2 quads, and modest work on reshaping the bow in an attempt to address performance on the high seas.

S class, Canadian (Ex Royal Navy) Destroyer laid down 1918 (Engine 193

Displacement:
1,000 t light; 1,036 t standard; 1,163 t normal; 1,265 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
284.53 ft / 281.00 ft x 26.75 ft x 10.80 ft (normal load)
86.72 m / 85.65 m x 8.15 m x 3.29 m

Armament:
2 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1938 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (1x8 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1938 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on side amidships
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1938 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 82 lbs / 37 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 32,187 shp / 24,012 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 3,700nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 229 tons

Complement:
99 - 129

Cost:
£0.258 million / $1.030 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 10 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 609 tons, 52.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 341 tons, 29.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 163 tons, 14.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 3.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
304 lbs / 138 Kg = 9.5 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 12.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.27
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.93

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.502
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.76 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 73 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (35 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (12.00 ft / 3.66 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Stern: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 14.26 ft / 4.35 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 180.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 34.4 %
Waterplane Area: 5,015 Square feet or 466 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 62 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 139 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 3.48
- Overall: 0.60
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

I've got a few projects upcoming...
First off, to round out '37;

A pair of abnormally large tankers were ordered by a Canadian shipping line that went bankrupt (mostly due to attempting to finance such large ships) just before the pair were to be completed. the Canadian government has taken them in hand to be refitted as Fleet Auxilliaries capable of underway replenishment.

Ruleswise, intended as a 15% refit to cover the costs of adding the weaponry and UNREP gear and minor fitting out details.

Provider class, Canadian Fleet Auxilliary laid down 1935

Displacement:
13,333 t light; 13,766 t standard; 21,668 t normal; 27,990 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
560.00 ft / 560.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
170.69 m / 170.69 m x 24.38 m x 9.14 m

Armament:
2 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1937 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1937 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 200 lbs / 91 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 0

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 16,067 shp / 11,986 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 42,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 14,224 tons

Complement:
892 - 1,160

Cost:
£2.808 million / $11.231 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 25 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 6 tons, 0.0 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 6 tons, 0.0 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 456 tons, 2.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,845 tons, 22.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 8,335 tons, 38.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 8,000 tons, 36.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
42,336 lbs / 19,203 Kg = 508.9 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 4.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 15.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 38 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.49

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.564
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.66 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 35 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 19
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m (18.00 ft / 5.49 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m (18.00 ft / 5.49 m before break)
- Stern: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Average freeboard: 20.96 ft / 6.39 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 48.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 121.8 %
Waterplane Area: 31,687 Square feet or 2,944 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 238 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 100 lbs/sq ft or 486 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.57
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

A most fitting name, and her sisters name?

Provisioner. The other two IRL Canadian Fleet Auxilliaries are "Protecteur" and "Preserver"...but I don't want anyone on driving these floating explosions getting ideas about 'protecting' some other ship by getting between it and incoming combustion-inducing matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protecteur_…uxiliary_vessel

Those S class destroyers look ok. Should still be useful in that guise as escorts until the mid 1940s. By then materially they will need replacing. Also they are useful ASW ships when hulls count in wartime.

The RN has enough old DDs to keep going so your welcome to refit these for your own needs.

The 20-24 or so S class I'll have should be sufficient; The end goal is to have more Tribals in service, they just take too long to produce. The fact that the refits will only have 2 4 inch guns is worrisome for fleet service, but it's the best solution I can come up with.

The other big project for '38 (beyond the in-progress Ontarios) is the aquisition and modernization of Furious. The details of the refit are to generally follow the lines of the Courageous and Glorious, but with some noticable differences and improvements based on the slightly larger dimensions of the base hull. The two main differences is the retention of the sponson'd broadside 5.5" guns (although the guns themselves will be replaced with mountings capable of anti-air elevations), and a sizable increase in bunkerage and UNREP gear intended to allow for destroyer refueling as needed. Other less obvious changes is the utilization of the newer light-weight 5.5" automated mounts, and space set aside for dedicated CinC Facilities and equipment.

HMCS Furious, Canadian [Ex-British] Aircraft Carrier laid down 1915 (Engine 193

Displacement:
24,000 t light; 24,995 t standard; 28,380 t normal; 31,088 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
740.29 ft / 735.00 ft x 89.00 ft (Bulges 96.00 ft) x 24.00 ft (normal load)
225.64 m / 224.03 m x 27.13 m (Bulges 29.26 m) x 7.32 m

Armament:
8 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1940 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
10 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1935 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
64 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (8x8 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1935 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
48 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (24x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1935 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,524 lbs / 691 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 450

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 565.00 ft / 172.21 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 118 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2.00" / 51 mm 480.00 ft / 146.30 m 22.00 ft / 6.71 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 182,225 shp / 135,940 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,094 tons

Complement:
1,093 - 1,421

Cost:
£2.491 million / $9.964 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 207 tons, 0.7 %
Armour: 3,862 tons, 13.6 %
- Belts: 1,120 tons, 3.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 781 tons, 2.8 %
- Armament: 213 tons, 0.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,748 tons, 6.2 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 4,990 tons, 17.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,140 tons, 32.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,380 tons, 15.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 5,800 tons, 20.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
43,153 lbs / 19,574 Kg = 518.7 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 5.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
Metacentric height 6.5 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.08
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.13

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.587
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.66 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.11 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Mid (50 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (28.00 ft / 8.53 m before break)
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 26.66 ft / 8.13 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 111.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 230.5 %
Waterplane Area: 47,245 Square feet or 4,389 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 133 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 633 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.27
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Improved light-weight Automated Dual-Purpose twin 5.5" guns simmed as 1940 Automatics.

5200 tons for 72 planes
100 tons for 2 spare planes and parts
100 tons for CIC facilities and other flagship amenities.
100 tons for Radar and other equipment
200 tons for Miscellaneous fleet stores.
50 tons for UNREP gear
40 tons for additional weight of DP automatic mounts (10 tons per)

Batch III Tribals, currently scheduled for 1939

Concerns over the magazine capacity of Batch I and especially Batch II Tribals led to the decision to further enlarge the Fleet Destroyer design by another 300 tons, adequate to accomodate optimal ammunition stowage, power supply for various electronic instruments now becoming standard, and further improving firepower. Alternative would be a repeat of Batch II, with the limitations of that design.

- HMCS Onondaga
- HMCS Oneida
- HMCS Ojibwa
- HMCS Okanagan
- HMCS Odawa
- HMCS Ookpik
- HMCS Osoyoos
- HMCS Oswegatchie



HMCS Onondaga, Canadian Destroyer laid down 1939

Displacement:
2,500 t light; 2,680 t standard; 2,952 t normal; 3,170 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
393.97 ft / 387.00 ft x 38.00 ft x 16.00 ft (normal load)
120.08 m / 117.96 m x 11.58 m x 4.88 m

Armament:
8 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1940 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x8 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1939 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1939 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 700 lbs / 317 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300
10 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - 0.25" / 6 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 57,040 shp / 42,552 Kw = 35.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 490 tons

Complement:
199 - 260

Cost:
£2.125 million / $8.500 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 104 tons, 3.5 %
Armour: 31 tons, 1.1 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 31 tons, 1.1 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 1,359 tons, 46.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 931 tons, 31.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 452 tons, 15.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 75 tons, 2.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
764 lbs / 346 Kg = 9.2 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 12.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.94
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.439
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.18 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.59 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (60 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 18.08 ft / 5.51 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 180.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 85.6 %
Waterplane Area: 9,657 Square feet or 897 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 73 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 45 lbs/sq ft or 218 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 2.59
- Overall: 0.59
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

Improved light-weight Automated Dual-Purpose twin 5.5" guns simmed as 1940 Automatics.

40 tons - additional weight of DP mounts (10 tons per)
35 tons - ASW and Radar

Holy Recoil Batman!!!

Quoted

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.94

That is pretty bad. I try not to go above .80 at all, and more than .70 for me is only done in special cases.

Best way to deal with this would be to slightly increase the beam.

Expansion of beam leads to poor seakeeping. The inertial dampners should be sufficient to handle recoil effects.

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc
Expansion of beam leads to poor seakeeping.

Which in turn cost a rather severe increase in cost to fix, IIRC... Recoil's fine as is, so no big sweat.

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc
Expansion of beam leads to poor seakeeping.

In real ships quite the opposite happens. I can't help but feel that this ship is severely overloaded. Looks good in SS, but naff in real life.

Why mount 8 guns when 4 or 6 will do just fine.

Or build that proposed version of Kyunstill, the Bulgarian contratorpiller.

Considering those 5.5" auto's should have a high rate of fire, sacrificing a pair for stability and seakeeping isn't much of a loss.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc
Expansion of beam leads to poor seakeeping.

In real ships quite the opposite happens. I can't help but feel that this ship is severely overloaded. Looks good in SS, but naff in real life.

Seakeeping is a funny subject, and sometimes counterintuitive: in certain sea conditions, a decrease in beam may be beneficial. Not here, though:

Quoted

Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m

Frankly, I'm not surprised, with four large-calibre automatic gun mounts, ten 21" torpedo tubes and plant for 60,000 horsepower. I'm astounded that it works as well as it does in SpringSharp: you might get away with it in the Baltic, Carribean or other fairly short, enclosed seas, but not in the open oceans. This is a cruiser on the cheap, and no good comes of such efforts.

It will be top heavy poor sea-keeper.
Still all in all this ship will work, will not be liked by the crew but still a descent combatant.
It may loose one turret in its service life.

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc
....

Armament:
2 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1937 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1937 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 200 lbs / 91 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 0

Btw .... in my eyes not very usefull armament

But nice drawing !!!!!

an armed merchant raider or a surfaced submarine, which is all it needs to do.

You are surely right Kuzi, but ... how can i use an armament, if I have no ammunition.