WesWorld

Fushun-Class
Coastal Minesweeper

Displacement:
light: 113,2 tons
standard: 128 tons
maximum: 141,3 tons

Dimensions:
Length: 38m
Beam: 5,72m
Draught: 1,5m

Propulsion:
3 shaft diesel engines 2200 hp
Speed: 16 knots (30 km/h)
Range: 2,400 nautical miles (4,444.8 km) at 10 knots (19 km/h)

Armour:
Deckhouse 8mm

Armament:
2x semiautomatic AA gun 45mm
1x twin s'MG 12,7mm

Misc Wight:
Depth charge rails and depth charges
minehunting / sweeping gear
mines

Crew:
37 men

##########################


Fushun, China Minesweeper laid down 1938

Displacement:
116 t light; 119 t standard; 127 t normal; 134 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
125,13 ft / 120,73 ft x 18,77 ft x 4,92 ft (normal load)
38,14 m / 36,80 m x 5,72 m x 1,50 m

Armament:
2 - 1,77" / 45,0 mm guns in single mounts, 2,78lbs / 1,26kg shells, 1938 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 0,50" / 12,7 mm guns (1x2 guns), 0,06lbs / 0,03kg shells, 1938 Model
Machine guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring
Weight of broadside 6 lbs / 3 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Conning tower: 0,31" / 8 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 575 shp / 429 Kw = 16,20 kts
Range 2.400nm at 10,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 14 tons

Complement:
18 - 24

Cost:
£0,039 million / $0,155 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 tons, 0,6%
Armour: 0 tons, 0,1%
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,1%
Machinery: 16 tons, 12,4%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 65 tons, 50,8%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 11 tons, 8,7%
Miscellaneous weights: 35 tons, 27,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
335 lbs / 152 Kg = 120,7 x 1,8 " / 45 mm shells or 0,4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,05
Metacentric height 0,4 ft / 0,1 m
Roll period: 11,8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,05
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2,00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,400
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,43 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 13,25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 27
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 12,07 ft / 3,68 m
- Forecastle (20%): 11,48 ft / 3,50 m
- Mid (50%): 11,48 ft / 3,50 m (7,68 ft / 2,34 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (20%): 7,68 ft / 2,34 m
- Stern: 7,68 ft / 2,34 m
- Average freeboard: 9,63 ft / 2,93 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75,0%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 146,7%
Waterplane Area: 1.447 Square feet or 134 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 176%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 21 lbs/sq ft or 102 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,71
- Longitudinal: 11,55
- Overall: 0,94
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather


any comments ???

Costal? is like saying served on the coast?

Of course i mean "coastal" and not "costal" damned english

So yes, this minesweeper is not for oceangoing tasks, only for coastal purpose.

hull strength is too low for a slow vessel. Also, 150 45mm rounds will last only 5 minutes on semiautomatic. I'd plan on action lasting 15 minutes or so, so I would at least triple her ammunition per gun.

Okay, increasing the ammunition makes sense, but why is the hull strength too low, if she will only be used at costal waters ?

Quoted

Originally posted by parador
Okay, increasing the ammunition makes sense, but why is the hull strength too low, if she will only be used at costal waters ?

It needs to be 1.00 to comply with the rules. Only if it's a light fast combatant (24 knots or greater) then can it have lower hull strength. We made the one exception for riverine ships (but I myself intend to continue designing my riverine ships to 1.00 hull strength anyway, as I feel it makes a superior ship). Of course, in even tame coastal environments you have more waves and such than on rivers, and I don't think we should make a hull strength exception for coastal ships.

The problem is, it's a real-design and with springsharp it didn't work very well, or may be i'm too stupid .

May be i use only the stats and not the sim because it's under 200tons and so it could be handled as small vessel.

Quoted

Originally posted by parador
May be i use only the stats and not the sim because it's under 200tons and so it could be handled as small vessel.

I have no real issues with that as long as the specifications are realistic, which in this case they are.

The alternative is to keep on messing a bit with the numbers. Then you can get to something like this.

Fushan, China Minesweeper laid down 1938

Displacement:
113 t light; 119 t standard; 127 t normal; 134 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
124.77 ft / 120.73 ft x 18.77 ft x 4.92 ft (normal load)
38.03 m / 36.80 m x 5.72 m x 1.50 m

Armament:
2 - 1.77" / 45.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.78lbs / 1.26kg shells, 1938 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (1x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1938 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring
Weight of broadside 6 lbs / 3 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 1,000

Armour:
- Conning tower: 0.31" / 8 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 575 shp / 429 Kw = 16.20 kts
Range 2,500nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 15 tons

Complement:
18 - 24

Cost:
£0.038 million / $0.153 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 tons, 0.6%
Armour: 0 tons, 0.1%
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0%
- Armament: 0 tons, 0.0%
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0%
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.1%
Machinery: 16 tons, 12.4%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 62 tons, 48.4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 14 tons, 11.1%
Miscellaneous weights: 35 tons, 27.5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
318 lbs / 144 Kg = 114.4 x 1.8 " / 45 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 0.5 ft / 0.1 m
Roll period: 11.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.04
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.73

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.43 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 13.25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 29
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 11.09 ft / 3.38 m
- Forecastle (20%): 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
- Mid (50%): 10.50 ft / 3.20 m (6.56 ft / 2.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15%): 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Stern: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Average freeboard: 8.58 ft / 2.61 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 77.3%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128.3%
Waterplane Area: 1,447 Square feet or 134 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 176%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 109 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.79
- Longitudinal: 7.85
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

That would also work well for me.

Looks good !!!

=> I'm too stupid for SpringSharp, because i haven't made it

Another question:

China has 11 factories, and so, after the rules, i can built the ships mentioned in my last sim-report.

3x Zigong-Class (95tons)
3x Shokai-Class (98tons)
3x PT-Class (43tons)

1 Ship for each factory (because displ. < 100tons)

4x LCVP (9tons)

2 ship for each factory (because displ. < 25 tons)

But that's all or ? If i want to build additional small vessels (under 200 tons), they have to be handled as "normal" ships, that means a building time of 4 month and trials of 3 month.

Quoted

Originally posted by parador
But that's all or ? If i want to build additional small vessels (under 200 tons), they have to be handled as "normal" ships, that means a building time of 4 month and trials of 3 month.

That's not my interpretation. As I understand it, and as I've seen others play, all craft under 200 tons are built in one month with one month trials period following, whether they're built by "factory" or on regular slips.

BUT ..... there are the "small vessels building rules"

Wooden and steel vessels of 200 tons and smaller, 150ft and smaller, can be constructed at a number of (rounded up)

2 craft equal to or smaller than 25t per factory per quarter
or
1 craft equal to or smaller than 100t per factory per quarter
or
1 craft equal to or smaller than 200t per 3 whole factories (or part there of) per quarter.


BUT

What will happen if, as i told before, the building program for vessels has been exhausted ???

a) the additional ships have to be handled as "normal" ships (see note from me)

or

b) the additional ships could also be built in one month with one month trial period following !!!

To me, those points are already covered adequately:

Quoted

Constructing such craft (ie, under 200 tons) does not require use of the slips or docks in a players infrastructure, if not in excess of the rule stated above, but constructing such craft still requires an amount of materials equal to its light displacement out of the nations war-materials production, in the month the vessel is constructed. For the purposes of the sim, the construction of such a craft is assumed to last exactly one month, all of it on slip. Repairs do not occupy any capacity, but are still paid for in materials. Shake-down cruise is assumed to last 1 month for full effect.

Perhaps it can be phrased more clearly, but according to my reading and, again, seeing what other players do, it seems obvious to me that you can lay down an MTB of 50 tons in a regular slip, build it in a month, then send it on trials.

I'd like to note that I don't feel that's an ideal method of acquiring small craft. As others have pointed out before, light-craft manufacture is no less an art than big ship manufacture; I'd personally like to see a different set of rules for MTBs and such. For instance, an MTB Yard costing .5IP and permitting, say, the construction of 5 MTBs or craft similarly covered by those >200t ship rules per quarter. Perhaps one MTB Yard per three factories, instead of those light-craft-per-factory rule cited above. But then, I've suggested this before and folks didn't seem to like it much...

Quoted

Perhaps it can be phrased more clearly, but according to my reading and, again, seeing what other players do, it seems obvious to me that you can lay down an MTB of 50 tons in a regular slip, build it in a month, then send it on trials.

Okay, that's now clear !!!



I'm also not happy with the small-craft-rule. Your idea with a MTB-factory has something. I also think, that there is a big difference between building "normal"
warships and such small vessels like MTBs.
The current rule even goes a little bit in that direction. But a small nation with only a few factories has here a disadvantage.To build a larger number of small
vessel, the country has to build another factory (too expensive). But a MTB-factory with 0.5 points is still affordable. And with another MTB factory they can again build more small vessels

Quoted

Originally posted by parador
To build a larger number of small vessels, the country has to build another factory (too expensive). But a MTB-factory with 0.5 points is still affordable. And with another MTB factory they can again build more small vessels

Precisely. (Though again, I note you can also build MTBs on regular construction slips; see the Bulgarian Q3/1937 report for where I did so.)

Of course, were we attempting to mimic real life, all our little powers would buy from a half-dozen big shipbuilders (Italy, US, UK, etc) for most of our needs. WW doesn't really work like that - we're all very independent and only tend to build foreign when we've exhausted our own available capacity. Not entirely realistic, but... well.

I like the Light Craft Yard idea because it gives a bit more "flesh" to the construction of MTBs and such. A solid way of saying "here we have a facility". Additionally, it would let us custom-tailor our facilities to our own interests. For example, with my Chilean hat on, I couldn't care less about building MTBs: with the usual sea state off my coastline, they're the next closest thing to a useless investment. Bulgaria, on the other hand, has the fairly sheltered waters (by comparison) of the Black Sea, combined with a short coastline. I'd easily imagine that at some point I'd want to build more MTBs, and I'd be willing to improve that infrastructure by building another Light Craft Yard or two.

At the same time, it's a way of noting that not all shipyards have equal capabilities even if they technically are large enough to do the work. For instance, setting a Type 4 slip to build MTBs: the MTB requires a certain skill set among its construction crews, while an 885ft battlewagon's builder would require different skills. The larger facility may not even be able to build that smaller MTB. A yard that normally builds trawlers might be well-suited to build a subchaser, but not an MTB. Yachtbuilders, on the other hand, can switch over pretty quickly to MTBs, because they already have a lot of the construction know-how to make those hulls.

Quoted

Precisely. (Though again, I note you can also build MTBs on regular construction slips; see the Bulgarian Q3/1937 report for where I did so.)

I see it.

I thought it's only allowed to build small vessels after the "small-vessel-rule" and none more.

But now i think if i use slips to built MORE vessels, i only have to look, that the ships will fit into the slip or dock and the building time will stay at one month and an additional month for the trials.

Quoted

Originally posted by parador

Quoted

Precisely. (Though again, I note you can also build MTBs on regular construction slips; see the Bulgarian Q3/1937 report for where I did so.)

I see it.

I thought it's only allowed to build small vessels after the "small-vessel-rule" and none more.

But now i think if i use slips to built MORE vessels, i only have to look, that the ships will fit into the slip or dock and the building time will stay at one month and an additional month for the trials.

That is my understanding, correct.