WesWorld

Ended up with an Iowa-like midships platform for the remaining quad 20mm. That means all the springsharp-indicated armament is fitted. Also slid the secondaries forward, added boats and a set of cranes, and an additional pair of AA-FC along the second stack.

There is obviously ample deckspace for more of an AA battery, as I see it, and the stern is still clear for aviation facilities (or even just clear enough to land gyros or helicopters at some point).

And another note on the bow form; at this timeframe, and this weight class, it's worth considering some kind of bulbous forefoot would be implemented. From what I recall, the Japanese have already done so with it's earlier '34 and '36 Battleships.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

South Africa's version of "Weapon Able"?

It'll be interesting if it is. I drew up a similar concept for Italy that even looks quite similar.

Is it just me or does there look to be too much space on Thunderer? Maybe the secondary turrets are just a bit small? There's a fairly massive superstructure but still lots of space available.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
Is it just me or does there look to be too much space on Thunderer? Maybe the secondary turrets are just a bit small? There's a fairly massive superstructure but still lots of space available.

I agree - it looks very empty, but I think it's just so big...

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
Is it just me or does there look to be too much space on Thunderer? Maybe the secondary turrets are just a bit small? There's a fairly massive superstructure but still lots of space available.

I agree - it looks very empty, but I think it's just so big...

The Hull form Hoo drew up is noticably larger than previous Battleships; Very beamy to begin with, and much broader aft.

The superstructure is edited mostly from Imperator's; It's been widened by a pixel or two overall, and most of the 'massiveness' comes from it being expanded forward without another extention for the 6" mount, and connected directly to the stack aft; The structure height is identical, but there's no 'terraced' effect to support the 6" mount, so it has a straight vertical face down to 02 deck; The small terrace for 01 was an effect I put in to try and break it up just a bit.

The DP & AA mounts, rangefinders, and all of the other detailing is lifted from Hoo's template, or off the Imperator picture. The only 'new' weapon is the 420mm turrets, which I modified (and even enlarged a bit) from Hoo's own 420mm template

To put in perspective, Imperator's beam is 81 pixels (at the deck, not the bulges). Thunderer is 103 wide.

The 'canvas' i've been working with has the Imperator aligned below Thunderer for comparison (and parts-yanking), which should give a compelling visual comparison;

Many thanks for all your feedback.

On the ships size:
She isn´t THAT big actually. Compared to some other super-BBs in WesWorld she´s rather small in fact. Her length is only 6m longer than OTL Bismarck, her beam identical, her draught shallower and her total displacement quite comparable to the German behemoth. That there is much space is not really a surprise to me. 6m more on a ship with only three main gun turrets offers a lot and German turrets tend to be large. Thunderes secondaries look small because those are just 115mm guns. The mount is a "copy" of the British mount used on the L&M class DDs (IIRC). Also - the number of light AA gun mounts is quite small because I choosed multi-barrel installations. It´s also difficult to keep track of all the small equipment that is needed to actually sail the ship. Such tools also eat up room and space but are often "forgotten" on our drawings.

On rocket launchers:
What is "Weapon Able"? I´ve heard that erm several times now but actually I don´t know what you are referring to.
The mounts on the template are meant to fire several type of missles with different warheads: LRM (Long Range Missles), ELRM (E = Extended) and SRM (Short Range Missles). The LRM is the standard rocket with an incinerating and splintering effect that is fired in single shots or massive salvos. The extended range version uses a different propellant which tends to go *puff* too early sometimes. The SRM has a warhead twice the size of the LRM but a much reduced range. It can be used against surface targets too or radar guided and with proximity fuzes against approaching A/C formations to break them up. All these missles can be fired from launchers of 5, 10, 15 or 20 tubes.

On heavy shells:
The idea behind heavy shells was often discussed. So I won´t wast much effort on it here. In general the RSAN used fast, light shells in the past but those grew heavier over time. The new BB designs all around the world can be expected to have very heavy armor - both vertical and horizontal. The heavy shell and it´s ballistic performance should counter it.

On main gun turrets:
The new ones narrow in aft which makes them look even smaller - or at least not larger than the previous 38cm tripples. The new look is good but the turrets do not have enough room for three lifts and all the supporting tools and equipment and I like to have all three guns served individually. It´s probably necessary to further enlarge the mounts (but not in height). I still remember a picture showing German 12" and 15" guns in comparison. Here we have 15" versus 16,54". The difference is smaller but should be notable. What does the board think? Are those turrets large enough?

Proposed modifications to the drawing:
- I think you made a good argument on the bulbous bow although I prefer the look of the Atlantic bow. I think we can keep it as is.
- That crane to serve the boats is way too short and small. I recommend using the larger one. Take a look on the Imperator. The massive cranes amidship are probably first choise but those abreast the Imps aft superstructure are also an option. What do you think?
- Most of the small AA mounts are very close to the centerline of the ship. There their arcs are much more limited due to funnels and superstructure. If possible, mounting them closer to the beam might be an improvement.
- The four 20mm hextuples amidship can be wiped away by a single shell or bomb which is not a good layout, methinks. Would it be possible to mount one pair at the aft edge of the forward funnel while the ones now abreast that funnel are moved further forward and out?
- The new pair of AA RFs abreast her aft funnel need platforms that come out quite a bit to ensure they can be turned. How will smoke and vibrations affect these optics? Probably those can be placed on the platform at the center of the ship?
- A pair of small boats in davits could be placed amidship where they could be served faster and more easily in peave time than those on the boat deck.
- Would it make sense to raise the aft funnel and mast a tid bit? Or do you prefer the staggered look as-is? Should there be a larger 03 deck aft with a small 04 above?
- I´ve modified the Thunderes design slightly (without any impact on any other stat) to allow the installation of 12 20mm single mounts on deck level and 10 20mm twins above deck level. These mounts surely eat up some of the available deck space.
- The pedestal used for the forward main RF seems a bit too high.

There is probably more but I think I should not spend all my ammo in this round, eh? ;o)

Seriously, the most important point is that deck and side view apply to each other.

Many thanks for your help,

HoOmAn

Weapon Able was the name fof Weapon Alpha before the switch in phonetic alphabets;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapon_Alpha

A further note on the heavy shell issue; As I've interpreted the data, a super-heavy shell on a Springsharp sim means the ship is capable of equipping a shell that large without major work being done, but there wouldn't seem to be anything stopping said ship from equipping lighter shells.

I can enlarge the turrets a bit more, sure.
The picture you're referring to would be;

(yoinked from navweaps; http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_12-50_skc12_pics.htm )

I picked a smaller crane on the basis that it was only serving boats instead of hauling planes, but I can swap it for something more substantial.

Will work on AA/RF issues. Any preference on relocating the platform 20mm to Stern/Prow mountings, or retained amidship somewhere? Also, you mention them as hextuples, but the sim says the 20mm are quads.

Can put a boat on davits as suggested; The main reason I didn't is I figured you'd want an additional 20mm battery at some point (especially after seeing the amount of free deckspace, and it seems I was right ), and figured I'd site those first before placing more boats.

Aft funnel and mast are the same height as Imperator; I raised the forward stack due to the structure being moved closer to it, but raising the aft stack to match made it look rather ponderous without additional structure around it. I can work on adding more deckhouse area beneath it and raise it a bit, tho.

Is the three different mountings of 20mm the way to go? Adding twins and singles to the existing quads seems somewhat complex; I could see that kind of mix being a result of a later AA refit, but as-built I'd think designers would keep it a bit simpler from a fabrication and maintainence standpoint. I could be wrong, tho.

I can lower the RF Pedestal by one deck, or return it to being flush with the bridge. (I almost put in a North Carolina style obelisk...)

The crane you choosed simply is not long enough and probably cannot serve the heavy cutters.

The SS files says quads because I somehow entered the wrong number of 20mm barrels. I´ve corrected it now. The RSAN generally used singles, twins and hextuples for their 20mm guns.

A mix of 20mm mounts is a problem? Not sure but you may have a point here. I assume the singles to be manually handled, the twins to have some mechanical support and the hextuples are powered mounts. The space required by these mounts is quite different as is the need to install ammo supply (lift nearby). Hence the singles can be bolted to the deck about everywhere while the twins and hextuples need to be placed carefully. However, I´m open to suggestions. A total of 32 20mm where added. How would you place them?

The aft funnel/deckhouse issue needs to be tested. Probably the addition of more decks would just make the whole ship look even more bulky. Not sure.....

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
The aft funnel/deckhouse issue needs to be tested. Probably the addition of more decks would just make the whole ship look even more bulky. Not sure.....

That was the general reason I didn't raise anything to begin with. I'll do a test draft on the next posting and see what comments it draws.

As for the 20mm, it makes a bit more sense without Quads in the mix (My gut reaction is to condense the sextuple and twin mounts into a uniform battery of quad mounts, but if the RSAN isn't using Quads, it makes more sense).

My only concrete suggestion goes back to an unanswered question; Twin 20mm on the stern and prow? Or do you want them all up in the superstructure.

I think there is no need to place any guns on ... well.... difficult locations. Bow and to some degree stern guns are not a favorite of mine, actually.

AA notes: Pulled most of the 40mm out towards the beam, harder to do with the sextuple 20mm, but I tried. Midships platform moved, widened, and lengethened to meet the forward stack. Smaller platform placed on that with a set of 20mm twins and the RFs. Additional 20mm twin placed on aft deckhouse, and a set of 3 twin 20mm on each quarter similar to South Africa. This comes to a total of 36 'new' 20mm, with 24 (12 twins) of them on the strength deck, and 12 (6 twins) raised to the 04 deck level. If the sim can't accomodate the 4 additional guns (Or you just don't like the location), I can delete the pair of twins on top of the aft deckhouse. I didn't add any Singles, reasoning that when war breaks out, you'll end up bolting them all over the place as needed.

Aft deckhouse (and by extention, the stack and mainmast) have been raised by one level, while retaining the AA and RF at their previous heights. Aft stack now equal in height with the forward stack. Deckhouse was also lengthened aft to give it more of a solid base.

Boats rearranged to accomodate updated AA fit, and allowing for a heavier crane. Set of boats on davits provided for; My opinion is during combat those boats would be removed, and a row of single 20mm would end up in that space (a la Mauritius).

The main gun turrets have been widened and lengthened, and the narrowing aft has been reduced. Forward Main RF pedestal lowered by one level; it's still a level higher than Imperator and pretty much every other BB.

I think that's everything.

Splendid job. Doesn´t she have a massive impact now? Optically, that is? A true fleet flagship. :o)

Overall I think you´ve come very close. I will comment on it in detail later (i.e. I don´t like these twins on the weather deck too much). It is about 1am and I need to catch some sleep.

Just let me say this: You´re really fast in adopting these changes. The way I use to do it obviously takes much more time. Either a matter of skill or tool...

Thank you very much.

Btw, do you use a very bright grew line to mark the centerline of that ship? I just got the impression there is such a line on her bow.... Could be my eyes, tho...

She does indeed have a most ponderous image. (Wes may need to update his own 50k monster at this point )

re: being fast. It's mostly just a matter of me sitting around without much else to do, and generally enjoying the work. I think I do have an eye for the pixel-by-pixel fiddling that helps in doing quick edits, tho.

The twins are probably too close to the main guns (especially the aft set), but I started running out of room while still keeping a nice clear area for boat stowage. There may be an alternative in placing them on the 01 deck where the boats are now, but that'd mean cramming more boats amidships.

The score mark on the prow is supposed to be the Jackstaff, actually. When I first pasted on the main guns and the first batch of superstructre from Imperator, I had a red line running down the centerline for reference. Once those were in place, I removed what was left of it tho.

Well.....

Regarding her look - I´m not sure "ponderous" is the right term to use (if the translation I found is correct). To me she looks great, some kind of massive but not fat. She somehow has the look of domination to me, dominating the battlefield around her.

Anyway...

Ready for some comments? :o)

As I already said those twins on the weather deck are not my favorites. This cind of installation is best suited for manual handled sinfle mounts. Hence I propose to replace them.

The number of 20mm mounts I envised was 12 singles (those on the weather deck) and 10 twins. Currently there are 6 twins visible on the ship. I´d add another pair aft on 01 deck on the free deck behind the last pair of 115mm secondaries. Another pair I would place on small sponsons or platforms on 01 deck abreast the bridge structure, forward of the first pair of 115mm mounts - about where the door is on the side view.

The platforms/tubes for the 20mm twin mounts should be higher. Currently yours are only 3 pixels high but should be 4 (like all other tubes).

The large cranes should be moved out about two pixels to allo training inward, towards the centerline (not possible right now).

Most important is a modification of her top view to make it match the side view. The decks and platforms around the funnels and the deck you added aft (03 deck?) are not visible from above. Also the RFs abreast her second funnel and other details are missing. I guess you left them away to easy work until her final layout is fix?

That odd line close to her stern needs to be removed.

Pixel errors amidship where the boats are need to be corrected. Obviously there is some problem with the templates as the boats in the foreground override the background white.

Do you think a second wave breaker (correct term?) is needed on her forward hull, probably abreast B barbet?

Several decks need some details on the side/top view (doors, portholes/scuttles, ventilation trunks or whatever you like to add).

Can another pair of searchlights be added to her forward funnel?

Are there other modifications or things you´d like to add? I´m open to suggestions. For example her second funnel could slightly be moved forward, just an idea, or do you think it is well placed?

Overall I think her layout is almost complete and her look is pretty good.

Many thanks again. I appreciate your work a lot.

HoOmAn

I took Ponderous to mean Imposing, with weight or substance to it, but I could be mistaken.



Main deck twins removed, replaced with single batteries midships. Additional 20mm twins added as requested (I think). Midships single battery may be a bit constrained, but it keeps them free of blast effects from the main battery.

20mm twin tubs adjusted; The template had them in shorter but wider tubs, originally.

Cranes moved, boats adjusted to accomodate slightly. Pixel detailing tweaked to better mesh with background.

Top view adjusted over aft deckhouse to account for additional level. The RFs abreast the aft stack were moved to the midships platform; they were not present in either side nor top view previously, so no adjustment made. -headscratch- If you're referring to the large searchlight, that's an error copied from Imperator's topview (they're appearently missing there as well). Whatever it is, it seems to be missing from your templates, as well.

I do sometimes forget to make the same adjustments to top and side views when I'm tweaking, it's something of a method-hazard.

Transom line removed. Second wave-breaker added. Searchlights added. Some minor detailing.

Moving the aft stack forward a bit would be a bit involved at this point, and would reduce midships space for boat stowage; My assumption is during war, the boats on the main and 01 decks would be moved up there to make room for additional AA fittings in those areas. In theory, I could rework the ship to have a single larger stack, and remove the aft one, but that'd leave the aft feeling a bit unbalanced from a visual perspective, I think.

Can't really think of any changes or additions at this point that haven't already been brought up; I tend to draw in most things I think would work, and wait for you to tell me to remove 'em

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc
I took Ponderous to mean Imposing, with weight or substance to it, but I could be mistaken.

Is likewise my interpretation. An elephant may be describes as ponderous... majestic, inexorable, movement with purpose. Kittens and destroyers are not ponderous. A B-29, on the other hand, may be ponderous...

Ohn no! Shin! What have you done! You´ve destroyed her!!! :o(

Of course I´m kidding.

If you´d just remove this midship singles again and place them where the twins were before. Their current position makes no sense to me at all.

Question: There are "shadows" underneath the forward balconies but there are none aft - why? Just curious...

No other comments.

@Brock:
Guess I need a new dic then....

The balcony shadows are another artifact of modding from Imperator;
She lacks the shadowing aft, so it didn't stick out as something to fix until you mentioned it.
Shadowing isn't something I normally fiddle too much with, hence the omission.

Relocated the 20mm as asked.

Thanks.....

Guess I need to fiddle with my Imperator drawing then.

Here is what I finally made of your drawing. I worked on some minor errors and details, smoothing lines etc.....

I hope you guys don;t have great ideas like her at the Koning Willem? I'll draw that vessels at Hood's and my own style, also For The Netherlands,Peru, and yours!!!

btw I love this topic, I can't say how much I like the designs!!