WesWorld

For those countries that have expressed interest in the past (Iberia, Peru, Siam, etc), here's the early model of the Do-217, powered by BMW-801s. It ends up being fairly quick for a medium bomber, though it's not the heaviest armed aircraft and the limitations of the BMW-801s supercharger are definitely felt in the performance above 15,000 feet.

Aircraft Type or Name:

Dornier Do-217A

General Type:
Airplane = 1
Airship = 2
Orbiter = 3
1

Year of First Flight: 1941

Description

Conventional Aircraft
Monoplane
Conventional Fuselage

The WW version of the Do-217. Equipped with 2 11mm MG-111 MGs in the dorsal turret and twin 7.92mm MG-81Zs in the nose and ventral positions (+1600 pounds), along with self-sealing fuel tanks (+1390 pounds), and 10mm cockpit (+900 pounds). Designed to carry an internal bomb-load of 3000 kg or an external bomb load of 2000 kg over 1600 nm, or a internal and external load of 4000 kg over a range of 1100 nm.





Characteristics:

Weight (maximum) 31,900 lbs
Weight (empty) 17,507 lbs

Length 55.8 ft
Wingspan 62 ft
Wing Area 614 sq ft
Sweep 2 degrees

Engines 2
BMW-801 G
Piston

1,810 hp
at 15,000 ft


Crew 4


Typical cost $0.091 million in 1941
Total number procured 2000


Performance:

Top Speed 303 kts = 348 mph
at 15,000 ft
Mach N/A

Operational Ceiling 27,000 ft

Range 1,600 nm = 1,842 miles
with 6,202 lbs payload
7,047 lbs released at halfway point

Climb 1,368 fpm

Cruise 240 kts = 276 mph
at 18,000 ft

Corner Speed 255 KIAS =
321 kts at 15,000 ft
Mach N/A
Turning Rate 16.6 deg/sec
Radius 3,732 ft



Internal Data:

Intake / Fan Diameter 11.5 ft

Bypass Ratio 85

Engine Weight 2030 lbs
Overall Efficiency 22 percent

Structural Factor 1.00

Number of Wings 1
Number of Fuselages 1

Limiting Airspeed 375 kts
Wing Ultimate g Load 7.00 g
Wing Taper 0.4
Wing Thickness at Root 2 ft

Tail / Canard Factor 0.4

Number of Nacelles 2
Length 9 ft
Diameter 4.5 ft
Fullness 0.5

Fuselage Diameter 4 ft
Fuselage Fullness 0.45

Pressurized Volume 0 percent
Cargo Decks 0

Cleanness 85 percent
Unstreamlined section 6.9 sq ft

User equipment 3,900 lbs

Because China has the HARBIN HA-36C, China is of course very interested in this aircraft.

I like the design, offers a good bombload and good ranges with a high speed. I think its suitable for a European power, China would benefit too from a fast bomber like this but some nations might find it a tad expensive.

Defensive armament is fair, not earth shattering but then if you want effective turrets you'd need lots more weight and some ingenious remote barbettes to accomodate the crew all-forward layout.


Argentina might be interested come 1941 if the Vanquish runs out of development room and if Atlantis can't match this fine effort.

Agreed, the armament isn't anything especially special, and the preferred crew layout DOES cause problems for it. A later model may well try to replace the ventral position's MG-81Z with a remote-controlled mounting with either a MG-81Z or a pair of MG-111s, but that's in the future. Other future models will likely be powered by the DB-603 (as historical) and fitted with a hemispherical nose (again, as historical). Assuming that Germany keeps availability of high-temperature alloys, the use of the BMW-801T turbo-supercharged engine is also a possibility, allowing for a much higher cruising altitude than the -801Gs will support.


The Ju-288 and Fw-191 are being developed as well, but they really need 2200+ hp engines (BMW-801F, Jumo-222, DB-603L, or DB-604.)

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
Argentina might be interested come 1941 if the Vanquish runs out of development room and if Atlantis can't match this fine effort.

I think that's a dare, Wes!

I designed the Vanquish and some of Wes' fine aircraft so it's a dare for me!

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
I designed the Vanquish and some of Wes' fine aircraft so it's a dare for me!

What kind of follow-on to the Vanquish would you suggest, then?

Spartan will likely design something similar to the Bristol Buckingham or the Armstrong whitworth Albemarle, (at least in appearance with the later design). In the meantime the B-4 valiant will continue to upgrade.

Ripon-Bloch will go the logical route and design the MB. 131 (historical date of 1937) along with the MB 174/175 and finally the MB.162.

Accrisius will design something similar to the Tupolev Tu-2 and develope along similar lines. In addition a heavy bomber not too dissimilar in appearance to the Messershmitt Me 264 will be in the works. More of a cross between the 264 and a B-29 in appearance.

I'm not sure what the Dutch are doing in the future for medium bombers. As information from South America and planes like the Do-217 are fielded, the T.VII will need upgrading or replacement.

Maritime strike is a driving concern, so likely the specs will be governed by capacity to carry twin torpedos internally, and I have the desired ranges worked out.

As for heavy bombers, after the loss rates in South America, they seem terribly inefficient for war fighting for a mid-range power like the Dutch. There is still the attraction of the bomber design they've been slowly developing, if only because the huge range, which as I recall allows ferry from Europe-Kongo-DEI. If I'm remembering the right one.

Here's an example of a possible later version of the Do-217, with the hemispherical nose and remote-controlled dorsal and ventral turrets. It's powered by the Jumo-213E to allow higher-altitude flight, but it hasn't been optimized for it by changing the wings to a higher aspect-ratio wing. This one won't be available to anyone for a while, the Jumo-213A hasn't reached the test bench in 1937 so the -213E is a ways out.


Aircraft Type or Name:

Dornier Do-217M

General Type:
Airplane = 1
Airship = 2
Orbiter = 3
1

Year of First Flight: 1942

Description

Conventional Aircraft
Monoplane
Conventional Fuselage

A later model of the WW Do-217. Equipped with 2 11mm MG-111 MGs each in the remote dorsal and ventral turrets and a twin 7.92mm MG-81Z in the nose position (+1900 pounds), along with self-sealing fuel tanks (+1390 pounds), and 10mm cockpit (+900 pounds). Designed to carry an internal bomb-load of 3000 kg or an external bomb load of 2000 kg over 1600 nm, or a internal and external load of 4000 kg over a range of 1100 nm.




Characteristics:

Weight (maximum) 33,000 lbs
Weight (empty) 18,276 lbs

Length 55.8 ft
Wingspan 62 ft
Wing Area 614 sq ft
Sweep 2 degrees

Engines 2
Junkers Jumo-213E
Piston

1,739 hp
at 31,500 ft


Crew 4


Typical cost $0.103 million in 1943
Total number procured 2000


Performance:

Top Speed 362 kts = 416 mph
at 31,500 ft
Mach N/A

Operational Ceiling 37,500 ft

Range 1,600 nm = 1,842 miles
with 6,308 lbs payload
7,164 lbs released at halfway point

Climb 1,225 fpm

Cruise 240 kts = 276 mph
at 31,500 ft

Corner Speed 318 KIAS =
535 kts at 31,500 ft
Mach 0.93
Turning Rate 10.0 deg/sec
Radius 10,379 ft



Internal Data:

Intake / Fan Diameter 10.75 ft

Bypass Ratio 81

Engine Weight 2075 lbs
Overall Efficiency 22.5 percent

Structural Factor 1.00

Number of Wings 1
Number of Fuselages 1

Limiting Airspeed 400 kts
Wing Ultimate g Load 7.00 g
Wing Taper 0.4
Wing Thickness at Root 2 ft

Tail / Canard Factor 0.4

Number of Nacelles 2
Length 12 ft
Diameter 3.25 ft
Fullness 0.75

Fuselage Diameter 4 ft
Fuselage Fullness 0.45

Pressurized Volume 0 percent
Cargo Decks 0

Cleanness 88 percent
Unstreamlined section 2.8 sq ft

User equipment 4,200 lbs

Looks pretty similar to Piaggio's recast P.104 medium bomber design. Designs with similar capability to current heavy bombers but with some reduction in range for European operations and a large reduction in cost.



Year: 1938
Crew: 5, pilot, co-pilot, bombardier, navigator, gunner
Length: 16.47m Span: 22.57m Wing Area: 70 sq m
Empty Weight: 8640kg Take-off Weight: 15200kg
Engines: 2 x 2070cv Isotta-Fraschini Asso 2000 RC.64
Speed: 600km/h at 6400m Service Ceiling: 10400m
Range: 1900km
Armament: 4000kg internal bombload, 2 x 13.2mm Breda-Safat M38 in dorsal turret

And here's the baseline Do-217C, powered by old reliable Jumo-211s instead of the new BMW-801s.

Dornier Do-217C

General Type:
Airplane = 1
Airship = 2
Orbiter = 3
1

Year of First Flight: 1941

Description

Conventional Aircraft
Monoplane
Conventional Fuselage

A WW version of the Do-217 powered by Jumo-211s. Equipped with 2 11mm MG-111 Mgs in the dorsal turret and twin 7.92mm MG-81Zs in the nose and ventral positions (+1600 pounds), along with self-sealing fuel tanks (+1390 pounds), and 10mm cockpit (+900 pounds). Designed to carry an internal bomb-load of 3000 kg or an external bomb load of 2000 kg over 1600 nm, or a internal and external load of 4000 kg over a range of 1200 nm,







Characteristics:

Weight (maximum) 29,700 lbs
Weight (empty) 15,615 lbs

Length 55.8 ft
Wingspan 62 ft
Wing Area 614 sq ft
Sweep 2 degrees

Engines 2
Junkers Jumo-211J
Piston

1,400 hp
at 14,000 ft


Crew 4


Typical cost $0.086 million in 1941
Total number procured 2000


Performance:

Top Speed 280 kts = 322 mph
at 12,000 ft
Mach N/A

Operational Ceiling 25,000 ft

Range 1,600 nm = 1,842 miles
with 6,416 lbs payload
7,286 lbs released at halfway point

Climb 1,014 fpm

Cruise 180 kts = 207 mph
at 12,000 ft

Corner Speed 246 KIAS =
294 kts at 12,000 ft
Mach N/A
Turning Rate 18.1 deg/sec
Radius 3,140 ft



Internal Data:

Intake / Fan Diameter 10 ft

Bypass Ratio 85

Engine Weight 1250 lbs
Overall Efficiency 22.5 percent

Structural Factor 1.00

Number of Wings 1
Number of Fuselages 1

Limiting Airspeed 375 kts
Wing Ultimate g Load 7.00 g
Wing Taper 0.4
Wing Thickness at Root 2 ft

Tail / Canard Factor 0.4

Number of Nacelles 2
Length 12 ft
Diameter 3.25 ft
Fullness 0.75

Fuselage Diameter 4 ft
Fuselage Fullness 0.45

Pressurized Volume 0 percent
Cargo Decks 0

Cleanness 85 percent
Unstreamlined section 2.4 sq ft

User equipment 3,900 lbs

After having a bit more of a look over this I'm really not convinced by the speed, the Jumo 211 and BMW 801 standard versions really shouldn't be that fast. I think there are a number of problems; firstly the fuselage diameter, 4ft really is much too small. I measured the historical Do-217 and it's 5x5.8ft for an average of about 5.5ft. Cleaness is also rather high at 85%. I'd understand that if there were no gun turrets, but they add a lot of drag to the aircraft (a Mosquito with a dorsal 4x7.7mm turret was -40mph). With the changes it'll be closer to historical lines. Still faster as the BMW801A engines magically produce a couple of hundred horsepower more than historically without cooling issues.

Here's a revised Do-217C. The fuselage has been deepened, and the cleanness reduced to 80% (the turret is the smallish turret the Do-217 had historically).

Dornier Do-217C

General Type:
Airplane = 1
Airship = 2
Orbiter = 3
1

Year of First Flight: 1941

Description

Conventional Aircraft
Monoplane
Conventional Fuselage

A WW version of the Do-217 powered by Jumo-211s. Equipped with 2 11mm MG-111 Mgs in the dorsal turret and twin 7.92mm MG-81Zs in the nose and ventral positions (+1600 pounds), along with self-sealing fuel tanks (+1390 pounds), and 10mm cockpit (+900 pounds). Designed to carry an internal bomb-load of 3000 kg or an external bomb load of 2000 kg over 1600 nm, or a internal and external load of 4000 kg over a range of 1200 nm,







Characteristics:

Weight (maximum) 30,800 lbs
Weight (empty) 16,186 lbs

Length 55.8 ft
Wingspan 62 ft
Wing Area 614 sq ft
Sweep 2 degrees

Engines 2
Junkers Jumo-211J
Piston

1,400 hp
at 14,000 ft


Crew 4


Typical cost $0.091 million in 1941
Total number procured 2000


Performance:

Top Speed 269 kts = 309 mph
at 12,000 ft
Mach N/A

Operational Ceiling 24,000 ft

Range 1,600 nm = 1,842 miles
with 6,485 lbs payload
7,398 lbs released at halfway point

Climb 910 fpm

Cruise 180 kts = 207 mph
at 12,000 ft

Corner Speed 250 KIAS =
299 kts at 12,000 ft
Mach N/A
Turning Rate 17.9 deg/sec
Radius 3,242 ft



Internal Data:

Intake / Fan Diameter 10 ft

Bypass Ratio 85

Engine Weight 1250 lbs
Overall Efficiency 22.5 percent

Structural Factor 1.00

Number of Wings 1
Number of Fuselages 1

Limiting Airspeed 375 kts
Wing Ultimate g Load 7.00 g
Wing Taper 0.4
Wing Thickness at Root 2 ft

Tail / Canard Factor 0.4

Number of Nacelles 2
Length 12 ft
Diameter 3.25 ft
Fullness 0.75

Fuselage Diameter 5.5 ft
Fuselage Fullness 0.45

Pressurized Volume 0 percent
Cargo Decks 0

Cleanness 80 percent
Unstreamlined section 2.4 sq ft

User equipment 3,900 lbs

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
After having a bit more of a look over this I'm really not convinced by the speed, the Jumo 211 and BMW 801 standard versions really shouldn't be that fast. I think there are a number of problems; firstly the fuselage diameter, 4ft really is much too small. I measured the historical Do-217 and it's 5x5.8ft for an average of about 5.5ft. Cleaness is also rather high at 85%. I'd understand that if there were no gun turrets, but they add a lot of drag to the aircraft (a Mosquito with a dorsal 4x7.7mm turret was -40mph). With the changes it'll be closer to historical lines. Still faster as the BMW801A engines magically produce a couple of hundred horsepower more than historically without cooling issues.

Historically, the Do-217E models, equipped with flame-damping exhausts and BMW-801A series engines had a top speed of 290 knots. The WW Do-217 doesn't use A-series BMW-801s, it uses the more powerful G/H series, without flame-damping exhausts (since it's not optimized for night bombing). So I'm not seeing the problem in the -217A being 13 knots faster (or 5 knots faster in the wider-fuselaged model that I'm now posting).


Dornier Do-217A

General Type:
Airplane = 1
Airship = 2
Orbiter = 3
1

Year of First Flight: 1941

Description

Conventional Aircraft
Monoplane
Conventional Fuselage

The WW version of the Do-217. Equipped with 2 11mm MG-111 MGs in the dorsal turret and twin 7.92mm MG-81Zs in the nose and ventral positions (+1600 pounds), along with self-sealing fuel tanks (+1390 pounds), and 10mm cockpit (+900 pounds). Designed to carry an internal bomb-load of 3000 kg or an external bomb load of 2000 kg over 1600 nm, or a internal and external load of 4000 kg over a range of 1100 nm,







Characteristics:

Weight (maximum) 33,000 lbs
Weight (empty) 18,078 lbs

Length 55.8 ft
Wingspan 62 ft
Wing Area 614 sq ft
Sweep 2 degrees

Engines 2
BMW-801 G
Piston

1,810 hp
at 15,000 ft


Crew 4


Typical cost $0.096 million in 1941
Total number procured 2000


Performance:

Top Speed 295 kts = 339 mph
at 15,000 ft
Mach N/A

Operational Ceiling 25,500 ft

Range 1,600 nm = 1,842 miles
with 6,347 lbs payload
7,231 lbs released at halfway point

Climb 1,261 fpm

Cruise 240 kts = 276 mph
at 18,000 ft

Corner Speed 259 KIAS =
325 kts at 15,000 ft
Mach N/A
Turning Rate 16.4 deg/sec
Radius 3,842 ft



Internal Data:

Intake / Fan Diameter 11.5 ft

Bypass Ratio 85

Engine Weight 2030 lbs
Overall Efficiency 22 percent

Structural Factor 1.00

Number of Wings 1
Number of Fuselages 1

Limiting Airspeed 375 kts
Wing Ultimate g Load 7.00 g
Wing Taper 0.4
Wing Thickness at Root 2 ft

Tail / Canard Factor 0.4

Number of Nacelles 2
Length 9 ft
Diameter 4.5 ft
Fullness 0.5

Fuselage Diameter 5.5 ft
Fuselage Fullness 0.45

Pressurized Volume 0 percent
Cargo Decks 0

Cleanness 80 percent
Unstreamlined section 6.1 sq ft

User equipment 3,900 lbs

If I draw them ever How does they sould like? same as real-life idea?

These early Do-217 models look like the historical Do-217E, yes.

Thanks

How many does Peru has, and how many I sould buy to renumber my losses at the War?

I presume Peru doesn't have any, considering it just came out. Howard expressed interest in the Do-217, but purchased some Do-215s in the interim, if I understand things correctly.

Looking at Peru's aerial OOB, I'd replace your Fokker-Avia F.IXD aircraft (many likely lost in the war) with Do-217s. The F.IXD appears to be an old Fokker Tri-motor converted airliner. You also have SM79 trimotors in torpedo-bomber service, as well as Bristol Beauforts.

I can calculate up likely war losses if you wish.

Thanks Brock!
It'l be greatfully to have those write-ups!