WesWorld

In WW, there's no difference between the Panzer III and the Panzer IV chassis, the difference between the two vehicles is the turret. That means that the historical Sdkfz-165 Hummel needs to be moved onto a different chassis than the historical Panzer III/IV chassis. When the Heer gets around to a SP 15cm howitzer (it surely won't be 1937 or 1938 ), this is what it will look like: the chassis is the same as the Panzer IIID's without the bolted-on additional armor on the front and sides, but with the heavier deck and belly armor of the Panzer IIIE. The engine is moved to the center of the hull, and a new superstructure mounting the standard 15cm field howitzer is fitted at the rear of the hull. The superstructure has no overhead protection other than a canvas cover and the rear of the superstructure is open to facilitate passing ammunition into the vehicle.


Vehicle Name Sdkfz 165 Hummel
Vehicle Type Self-propelled Artillery

Length 6.00 meters
Width 3.15 meters
Height 2.85 meters

Crew 6.00 men
Passengers 0.00 men

Weight Breakdown
Crew Weight 1.08 metric tons
Passenger Weight 0.00 metric tons
Miscellaneous Weight 0.13 metric tons
Armor Weight 11.18 metric tons
Armament Weight 2.45 metric tons
Ammunition Weight 0.92 metric tons
Engine Weight 1.24 metric tons
Fuel Weight 0.51 metric tons
APU Weight 0.00 metric tons
Energy Bank Weight 0.06 metric tons
Transmission Weight 0.65 metric tons
Amphibious Equipment Weight 0.00 metric tons
Suspension Weight 1.79 metric tons
Track Weight 2.02 metric tons
Road Wheel Weight 1.87 metric tons
Applique Armor Package A 0.00 metric tons
Applique Armor Package B 0.00 metric tons
Cargo Payload 0.00 metric tons

Mobility and Performance Breakdown

Engine 300.00 horsepower
Fuel Capacity 160.00 gallons
Maximum Hull Speed (water) 6.84 MPH

Baseline Upgraded (A) Upgraded (A+B)
Combat Weight 23.90 23.90 23.90 metric tons
Growth Capability (Transmission) 1.12 1.12 1.12 metric tons
Growth Capability (Suspension) 1.10 1.10 1.10 metric tons
Ground Pressure 14.16 14.16 14.16 PSI
Power/Weight Ratio 12.55 12.55 12.55 hp/metric ton
Top Speed 22.75 22.75 22.75 MPH
Operating Range 151.72 151.72 151.72 miles

Armament Breakdown
Hull Turret AA
Rifle Calibre MGs 0.00 0.00 1.00
HMGs 0.00 0.00 0.00

Hull Turret Total
ATGMs 0.00 0.00 0.00 rounds stowed
Rifle Calibre 0.00 800.00 800.00 rounds stowed
HMG Calibre 0.00 0.00 0.00 rounds stowed

Calibre (mm) # in Hull # in Turret Rounds (hull) Rounds (Turret)
Cannon/Gun 1 150.00 0.00 1.00 18 0
Cannon/Gun 2 0.10 0.00 0.00 0 0

BASELINE PROTECTION LEVELS
KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Hull Armor 53.01 43.10 Resistant to Soviet 30x210mm M53 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Hull Armor 26.61 21.63 Resistant to 12.7 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Hull Armor 5.00 5.00 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Hull Armor 10.00 10.00 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Hull Floor Armor 15.00 15.00 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything

KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Turret Armor 46.19 46.19 Resistant to 20x110mm Hispano Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Turret Armor 15.00 15.00 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Turret Armor 0.00 0.00 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Turret Armor 0.00 0.00 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything

The WW version of the OTL Wespe is extremely similar to the historical vehicle, really only differing in the suspension and engine. The "turret" on the sim is, of course, not a turret at all but a fixed superstructure that provides some protection for the crew.


Vehicle Name Wespe
Vehicle Type Self propelled Howitzer

Length 4.80 meters
Width 2.27 meters
Height 2.40 meters

Crew 5.00 men
Passengers 0.00 men

Weight Breakdown
Crew Weight 0.72 metric tons
Passenger Weight 0.00 metric tons
Miscellaneous Weight 0.21 metric tons
Armor Weight 5.93 metric tons
Armament Weight 0.76 metric tons
Ammunition Weight 0.53 metric tons
Engine Weight 0.66 metric tons
Fuel Weight 0.26 metric tons
APU Weight 0.00 metric tons
Energy Bank Weight 0.04 metric tons
Transmission Weight 0.40 metric tons
Amphibious Equipment Weight 0.00 metric tons
Suspension Weight 0.96 metric tons
Track Weight 0.91 metric tons
Road Wheel Weight 0.32 metric tons
Structural Weight 2.52 Metric tons
Applique Armor Package A 0.00 metric tons
Applique Armor Package B 0.00 metric tons
Cargo Payload 0.00 metric tons

Mobility and Performance Breakdown

Engine 160.00 horsepower
Fuel Capacity 80.00 gallons
Maximum Hull Speed (water) 6.12 MPH

Baseline Upgraded (A) Upgraded (A+B)
Combat Weight 11.71 11.71 11.71 metric tons
Growth Capability (Transmission) 3.69 3.69 3.69 metric tons
Growth Capability (Suspension) 1.79 1.79 1.79 metric tons
Ground Pressure 12.84 12.84 12.84 PSI
Power/Weight Ratio 13.67 13.67 13.67 hp/metric ton
Top Speed 24.78 24.78 24.78 MPH
Operating Range 154.91 154.91 154.91 miles


Armament Breakdown
Hull Turret AA
Rifle Calibre MGs 0.00 0.00 1.00
HMGs 0.00 0.00 0.00

Hull Turret Total
ATGMs 0.00 0.00 0.00 rounds stowed
Rifle Calibre 0.00 800.00 800.00 rounds stowed
HMG Calibre 0.00 0.00 0.00 rounds stowed

Calibre (mm) # in Hull # in Turret Rounds (hull) Rounds (Turret)
Cannon/Gun 1 105.00 0.00 1.00 32 0
Cannon/Gun 2 0.10 0.00 0.00 0 0

BASELINE PROTECTION LEVELS
KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Hull Armor 31.44 31.44 Resistant to 20x110mm Hispano Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Hull Armor 15.76 15.76 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Hull Armor 10.81 10.81 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Hull Armor 10.00 10.00 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Hull Floor Armor 15.00 15.00 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything

KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Turret Armor 17.32 17.32 Resistant to 7.62 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Turret Armor 15.00 15.00 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Turret Armor 0.00 0.00 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Turret Armor 0.00 0.00 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything

A SP siege mortar, carrying a modernized version of the 42cm "Gamma" mortar from the Great War. The "cargo" payload is the crane, used to load the 880 kg projectiles into the gun and onto the vehicle.

Vehicle Name Sdkfz 168 - Gamma
Vehicle Type Self-propelled siege howitzer

Length 7.00 meters
Width 3.20 meters
Height 2.70 meters

Crew 10.00 men
Passengers 0.00 men

Weight Breakdown
Crew Weight 1.08 metric tons
Passenger Weight 0.00 metric tons
Miscellaneous Weight 0.22 metric tons
Armor Weight 6.92 metric tons
Armament Weight 26.96 metric tons
Ammunition Weight 2.87 metric tons
Engine Weight 0.83 metric tons
Fuel Weight 0.38 metric tons
APU Weight 0.00 metric tons
Energy Bank Weight 0.00 metric tons
Transmission Weight 1.30 metric tons
Amphibious Equipment Weight 0.00 metric tons
Suspension Weight 3.57 metric tons
Track Weight 3.71 metric tons
Road Wheel Weight 0.85 metric tons
Structural Weight 10.64 Metric tons
Applique Armor Package A 0.00 metric tons
Applique Armor Package B 0.00 metric tons
Cargo Payload 1.00 metric tons

Mobility and Performance Breakdown

Engine 200.00 horsepower
Fuel Capacity 120.00 gallons
Maximum Hull Speed (water) 7.39 MPH

Baseline Upgraded (A) Upgraded (A+B)
Combat Weight 49.70 49.70 49.70 metric tons
Growth Capability (Transmission) 0.35 0.35 0.35 metric tons
Growth Capability (Suspension) 0.30 0.30 0.30 metric tons
Ground Pressure 14.42 14.42 14.42 PSI
Power/Weight Ratio 4.02 4.02 4.02 hp/metric ton
Top Speed 7.29 7.29 7.29 MPH
Operating Range 54.72 54.72 54.72 miles

Amphibious Performance Breakdown
Density of Vehicle 1.25 1.25 1.25 g/cm3
Vehicle Freeboard (Transiting) -2.61 -2.61 -2.61 meters
Vehicle Freeboard (Dropped In) -4.15 -4.15 -4.15 meters
Vehicle Draft (Transiting) 4.06 4.06 4.06 meters
Vehicle Draft (Dropped in) 5.60 5.60 5.60 meters
Water Speed #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0! MPH
Operating Range In Water #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0! miles

Armament Breakdown
Hull Turret AA
Rifle Calibre MGs 0.00 0.00 0.00
HMGs 0.00 0.00 0.00

Hull Turret Total
ATGMs 0.00 0.00 0.00 rounds stowed
Rifle Calibre 0.00 0.00 0.00 rounds stowed
HMG Calibre 0.00 0.00 0.00 rounds stowed

Calibre (mm) # in Hull # in Turret Rounds (hull) Rounds (Turret)
Cannon/Gun 1 420.00 0.00 1.00 3 0
Cannon/Gun 2 0.00 0.00 0.00 0 0

BASELINE PROTECTION LEVELS
KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Hull Armor 15.12 15.12 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Hull Armor 10.00 10.00 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Hull Armor 5.00 5.00 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Hull Armor 8.00 8.00 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Hull Floor Armor 8.00 8.00 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything

KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Turret Armor 15.53 15.53 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Turret Armor 10.00 10.00 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Turret Armor 0.00 0.00 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Turret Armor 0.00 0.00 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything

Gamma is just a hypothetical studt right?

France and Poland are going to be very worried if these turn up in service.

Hummel and Wespe seem fine, Britain still hasn't really studied SPGs in any depth since the mid 1920s.

One of the (several) problems with the historical Gamma or Big Bertha mortars was that they were so large that they had to be transported in segments then reassembled on-site, requiring hours if not days to go into action. Mounting the entire gun on a self-propelled chassis allows this time to be reduced, since the vehicle can be carried by rail to within some distance of the target, the vehicle can be lowered (from the two special rail cars that held it) to the ground and it can crawl off to take the target under fire.

Germany currently has no plans to add Sdkfz 168s to the Heer. It's a prototype and might see small scale production for foreign customers.


[I'd think it would be more Belgium (because they're always paranoid about Germans) and Czechoslovakia that would be concerned about these, but I might be wrong.]

Late in 1938, after the prototype Hummel is tested, a new vehicle on a similar chassis (though with wider tracks and, if it were to go into production, heavier suspension and transmission) clanked out onto the field at Grafenwohr for testing. This was a self-propelled 21cm howitzer, which traded the towed guns ability to rotate on it's firing platform for a much more rapid ability to come into and out of battery. Just like with the Hummel, the "turret" is not rotatable, instead it's a superstructure, with an open roof and back to facilitate working the heavy 21cm howitzer.


Vehicle Name Sdkfz 166
Vehicle Type Self-propelled Artillery

Length 6.00 meters
Width 3.23 meters
Height 2.85 meters

Crew 8.00 men
Passengers 0.00 men

Weight Breakdown
Crew Weight 1.44 metric tons
Passenger Weight 0.00 metric tons
Miscellaneous Weight 0.18 metric tons
Armor Weight 10.72 metric tons
Armament Weight 7.18 metric tons
Ammunition Weight 0.81 metric tons
Engine Weight 1.24 metric tons
Fuel Weight 0.51 metric tons
APU Weight 0.00 metric tons
Energy Bank Weight 0.06 metric tons
Transmission Weight 0.80 metric tons
Amphibious Equipment Weight 0.00 metric tons
Suspension Weight 2.14 metric tons
Track Weight 2.43 metric tons
Road Wheel Weight 2.24 metric tons
Applique Armor Package A 0.00 metric tons
Applique Armor Package B 0.00 metric tons
Cargo Payload 0.00 metric tons

Mobility and Performance Breakdown

Engine 300.00 horsepower
Fuel Capacity 160.00 gallons
Maximum Hull Speed (water) 6.84 MPH

Baseline Upgraded (A) Upgraded (A+B)
Combat Weight 29.75 29.75 29.75 metric tons
Growth Capability (Transmission) 1.05 1.05 1.05 metric tons
Growth Capability (Suspension) 0.25 0.25 0.25 metric tons
Ground Pressure 14.69 14.69 14.69 PSI
Power/Weight Ratio 10.08 10.08 10.08 hp/metric ton
Top Speed 18.28 18.28 18.28 MPH
Operating Range 121.90 121.90 121.90 miles

Amphibious Performance Breakdown
Density of Vehicle 0.96 0.96 0.96 g/cm3
Vehicle Freeboard (Transiting) -0.98 -0.98 -0.98 meters
Vehicle Freeboard (Dropped In) -1.96 -1.96 -1.96 meters
Vehicle Draft (Transiting) 2.58 2.58 2.58 meters
Vehicle Draft (Dropped in) 3.56 3.56 3.56 meters
Water Speed #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0! MPH
Operating Range In Water #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0! miles

Armament Breakdown
Hull Turret AA
Rifle Calibre MGs 0.00 0.00 1.00
HMGs 0.00 0.00 0.00

Hull Turret Total
ATGMs 0.00 0.00 0.00 rounds stowed
Rifle Calibre 0.00 800.00 800.00 rounds stowed
HMG Calibre 0.00 0.00 0.00 rounds stowed

Calibre (mm) # in Hull # in Turret Rounds (hull) Rounds (Turret)
Cannon/Gun 1 210.00 0.00 1.00 6 0
Cannon/Gun 2 0.01 0.00 0.00 0 0

BASELINE PROTECTION LEVELS
KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Hull Armor 43.10 43.10 Resistant to 20x110mm Hispano Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Hull Armor 21.63 21.63 Resistant to 7.62 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Hull Armor 10.70 10.70 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Hull Armor 10.00 10.00 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Hull Floor Armor 15.00 15.00 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything

KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Turret Armor 46.19 46.19 Resistant to 20x110mm Hispano Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Turret Armor 15.00 15.00 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Turret Armor 0.00 0.00 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Turret Armor 0.00 0.00 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything

Isn't 30tons a bit light for a 210mm howitzer?

More than abit mefinks considering the KV-2 with a 152mm gun weighed in at 56 tons.

KV-2 was handicapped in a way by the fact it was an upgrade/conversion principle though - they had to fit the gun into a turret big enough to handle it, without any level of submergence into the hull which was limited in its capacity. So you have the gun, the big arsed turret, the mechanics to turn that turret, and IIRC it had more than six stowed rounds which would add further to the weight.

By comparison, his unit here is like an upsized Hummel, and he's avoiding excess weight in the "turret" because he's using the definition in this case of Turret to define the superstructure of his mounting - it's not a hull mount, like, say, a StuG III, and I can see his logic there. It's a fixed mount, relatively, and aimed more towards elevation and internalized protection than being turnable or any such considerations - handy, considering the fact I would imagine she would need a rather wide wheelbase in order to stabilize that 21cm gun when firing broadside. He's cutting mechanical weight that way, in the long stretch, though he might need some mechanics to help handle those heavy rounds - I would imagine the 21cm rounds are a little heavy to lift by hand.

As Sauragnmon said, this is, essentially, a WW Hummel modified to support the much heavier 21cm howitzer. It has nowhere close to the armor of the KV-2, on any facing, so it's lighter than that vehicle. It's not a direct-fire assault gun (like a Brummbar or a SiG-33B) or an assault tank like a KV-2, it's a self-propelled indirect fire artillery piece like a Hummel or a M40.

It's lighter than some of the US 8" SPHs, but those were on heavier chassis as well. The weights for the chassis and the gun seem fairly reasonable (22 tons for the chassis, over 7 tons for the gun). The M43, the most comparable vehicle, is 6 tons heavier, but it has a more powerful engine, 32% lower ground pressure, comparable armor in most ways (no superstructure, but it's a bigger vehicle overall), and the M43 carries 16 rounds vs only 6. The M110, a later but fairly comparable vehicle, is lighter but doesn't have a superstucture, has lighter armor on several aspects, and only carries 2 rounds and 5 crew on board.

Another vehicle to compare it to would be the US M12 GMC, which was a bit under 4 tons lighter than my design. That vehicle was somewhat longer but narrower than my design, and carried a 155mm gun vs the 21cm howitzer with 10 rounds. It, like the later M40/M43, had no superstructure around the gun. The gun weights are comparable: the M40 (with a 155mm gun) weighed 1 ton more than the M43 (with a 8" howitzer). So, no, I don't think the Sdkfz 166 is too light at just under 30 tons.

Ok, it just seemed quite a bit lighter than the contemporary US vehicles with similar weapons.

M-40 weighed in at 40 tons.

The M40 weighed 40.5 US tons, 37 metric tons. Tanksharp does weights in metric tons.