WesWorld

Just curious, why is Peru selling them? Is it just because of fleet size issues?

Quoted from "Hood"

Just curious, why is Peru selling them? Is it just because of fleet size issues?

Overall size of the fleet is the problem. Even after the sales to China and to Argentina, the Armada has too many of the wrong types of vessel.

A couple of years ago Argentina might have gone for these, but I'm maxed out with destroyers now.
If only our Mexican scrap dealers were still in operation!

Quoted from "Hood"

A couple of years ago Argentina might have gone for these, but I'm maxed out with destroyers now.
If only our Mexican scrap dealers were still in operation!

Yes. I wish Foxy were still with us; he kept us hopping.

Quoted from "BruceDuncan"

The market, I realize, is thin, but Peru has far more ships than it reasonably needs. So I will ask: Anyone interested in offering to purchase the eight ships of the Tiente Vazquez II class of destroyers?

Unlikely as their sale might appear, I have reached the point where I have dock space to begin scrapping these. So one last opportunity folks.

Quoted from "BruceDuncan"

Quoted from "Hood"

A couple of years ago Argentina might have gone for these, but I'm maxed out with destroyers now.
If only our Mexican scrap dealers were still in operation!

Yes. I wish Foxy were still with us; he kept us hopping.

I would have definitely bought the Teniente Vazquez, they are still very new.

Makes more sense to me to put them in reserve rather than sell them.

Or sell them to an NPC nation, many of them need updating and it seems logical they would want modern ships, these are nearly brand new.

Makes no sense for me to buy them with any of my player hats on.

Mexico is technically NPC right now it seems.

Quoted from "Hood"

Or sell them to an NPC nation, many of them need updating and it seems logical they would want modern ships, these are nearly brand new.

Makes no sense for me to buy them with any of my player hats on.

I agree that for Argentina or your other nations, they would make no sense.

I am very reticent about the idea of selling them to an NPC nation that does not have someone looking after it - to me it smacks of raiding the bank for free tonnage. So it will keep the dockyards busy. :(

Quoted from "BruceDuncan"

I am very reticent about the idea of selling them to an NPC nation that does not have someone looking after it - to me it smacks of raiding the bank for free tonnage.

My general feeling as well.

Whats the worry, we could decide a scrap value +5% or 10% profit NPC sale rule.
At this late state of the sim is it really going to matter if these end up with Mexico, Thailand, Bulgaria or wherever?
Its not like Peru can do much with that tonnage to build any super-battleships before the sim ends.

I don't tend to be in favor of dumping things on an NPC, particularly when doing so would net them a fleet of bits-and-bobs that may or may not in fact meet any coherent plan or need. Fortunately (at least over the last few years) most of the NPCs have a player who acts as caretaker for them. As a moderator I've tried to keep a bit of life in some of the NPCs, but only ones that I have a particular interest in.

In that case, what's the problem with a player deciding for themselves to scrap something that they have no more use for?

There's a perfectly good reason for why these ships were scrapped despite their relatively recent construction. These were the main Peruvian destroyers during the Civil War era, and so they were ridden hard and put away wet, so to speak. I think there's only one Peruvian ship (Almirante Grau) that served in that conflict that's still in service. Most of the Chilean ships from that period have similarly been scrapped (or massively rebuilt).

Quoted from "Brockpaine"

There's a perfectly good reason for why these ships were scrapped despite their relatively recent construction. These were the main Peruvian destroyers during the Civil War era, and so they were ridden hard and put away wet, so to speak. I think there's only one Peruvian ship (Almirante Grau) that served in that conflict that's still in service. Most of the Chilean ships from that period have similarly been scrapped (or massively rebuilt).

And the Almirante Grau has had a recent refit to make good what might have been shortcomings.

The biggest issue I have with the design of the Teniente Vasquez II class is that they are, IMHO, poor seaboats. I suppose if I really wanted to keep them I might find a way to refit them to correct this problem but that would still leave me with far more destroyers than Peru can possibly use at this point in the game.

I’ve left them until now in the hope that a buyer [that means you Foxy] might appear but that seems unlikely at this point.

While I understand the noble urge to refrain from selling to NPC's willy nilly just to make a profit I find it highly unrealistic that a nation such as Peru would simply discard 6 year old ships no matter what my in character Colombian feelings are. I understand that a nation such as the U.S. or Britain would discard such heavily used vessels (in the case of the U.S. they would be in inactive reserve), they have the resources to change their fleets composition to changing world threats. How hard were they really used? I don't recall a lot of Peruvian civil war action for the Navy, please refresh me if I'm wrong. I don't see why Mexico or Brazil wouldn't pick these ships up, Brazil uses the same caliber guns on destroyers IIRC. I also don't understand the poor seaboat issue, they are destroyers and they are not operating in the North Atlantic.

Well its no big issue either way it was just a suggestion.
The seakeeping does seem rather poor, even for a destroyer. I know we discussed some time back that for destroyers the SS report is probably less accurate in regards to seakeeping ability, but these ships really seem to be quite poor in that regard.

Quoted from "thesmilingassassin"

How hard were they really used? I don't recall a lot of Peruvian civil war action for the Navy, please refresh me if I'm wrong.

They spent most of the conflict unable to reach Peru's major repair and refit station, so even though they weren't constantly at sea, they definitely suffered from the experience.

Quoted from "thesmilingassassin"

I don't see why Mexico or Brazil wouldn't pick these ships up, Brazil uses the same caliber guns on destroyers IIRC.

Because Hood and I went to some significant efforts a few years ago to give the Brazilians a decent force of good, modern, modernizable destroyers, and I don't want to see people shit on our efforts by selling their secondhand junk to clutter up the ranks. I don't care so much about Mexico, since they've already got a logistician's nightmare of a fleet / zoo.

If people are so desirous of exploiting NPCs, then I've got some stuff here in Russia that I really need to get busy with. I've got... let's see... 6 carriers, 73 destroyers, 95 corvettes, and some other associated junk that I can dump off on some unsuspecting victim...

I'm not in favor of adopting any rules about selling to NPCs, but if people want one, here's my proposal: "if you want to sell to an NPC, propose the arranged buyer, price, and date of sale. The rest of the players can give thumbs up or thumbs down, giving them two weeks to approve or veto."

Quoted from "Hood"

Well its no big issue either way it was just a suggestion.
I know we discussed some time back that for destroyers the SS report is probably less accurate in regards to seakeeping ability, but these ships really seem to be quite poor in that regard.

Way back, I think I saw something that indicated most of us were using about 20-30% more freeboard than ships of this era, simply in an effort to reach that magic number in Springsharp that indicates a good seaboat rating. Simming an actual WWII-era destroyer with the correct freeboard would probably give you something in the 0.8 to 0.9 seaboat rating in Springsharp - and that ship would likely be just fine as a seaboat in real life.

Quoted

Because Hood and I went to some significant efforts a few years ago to give the Brazilians a decent force of good, modern, modernizable destroyers, and I don't want to see people shit on our efforts by selling their secondhand junk to clutter up the ranks. I don't care so much about Mexico, since they've already got a logistician's nightmare of a fleet / zoo.

I do remember trying to figure out a scrapping/refit schedule was quite challenging to say the least... To be fair half of Mexico's fleet was more of a floating bank of sorts, a stash of tonnage to be used at a later time.

Indeed. :)

First of all I don't see anyone being "so desirous of exploiting NPC's", please read my post again and secondly no ones even mentioned rules for selling to NPC's so why bring that up?