WesWorld

Brazil Hat on:

Brazil is quite unhappy with the gunnery performance by her navy in the SA War, and will be looking for either a predreadnought or an early dreadnought to use as a gunnery training ship if any are available.

As for future capital ship purchases, if one of the American Standards, the Rs, the Atlas class, or the Japanese Ises goes up for sale, ill make an offer, but likely only for one ship.

Future new ship building won't be until at least 1939-40 before keels are laid in the water, and im not sure if Brazil will even build a fleet anymore, its pretty much too late in the game for it now. She might just divert all her resources into building the largest Submarine fleet in WW.

For a quick naval buildup Brazil would be best served with a CL/DD navy, perhaps a few coastal defence ships and some smaller frigates and sloops.

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She might just divert all her resources into building the largest Submarine fleet in WW.

In that case the SAE better builds more ASW vessels and prepares strikes against submarine bases...

Seriously, why do you think 36/37 is too late? I´m pretty sure we will not stop pre-45. Any 20k tons super-CA or carrier laid down early in Q3/37 (or earlier) will be available for Xmas 1939 (or earlier). That leaves you 5 years to use her for a scripted conflict. Even a 39k tons BB (probably the largest a type 3 slip/dock is useful for) will be ready until mid-41 which also leaves you enough time to use her for a final earthshacking conflict.

If you are still in 1936 with your reports all this could be at hand even earlier.

With 7 factories Brazil can produce 28k tons of material in a year, or 112k tons in four years. To me that sounds like two ~32k tons fast but probably short ranged capital ships, 4x CL of ~7.500 tons, 8x DD of 1.500 tons and 8k tons for submarines, minesweeper and coastal stuff. With what you still have this should make a decent fleet. Even more so if you build two or three 20k tons super-CAs instead of the BBs or get some lightly used ships from other powers thus gaining more tonnage elsewhere.

I would not build CVs or AVs because Brazil lacks experience and even more important has no distant areas or long ranged capital ships to cover. Out to 1000km from your shore land-based aircraft can handle everything.

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As for future capital ship purchases, if one of the American Standards, the Rs, the Atlas class, or the Japanese Ises goes up for sale, ill make an offer, but likely only for one ship.

Hate to dissappoint you but Japan has no Ise class ships. They're all Fusos.

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She might just divert all her resources into building the largest Submarine fleet in WW.

Good luck with that. Brazil has 9 subs according to the last report I could find (which is Q1/1936). The number 1 submarine nation in Wesworld (Japan) has 318 submarines. The number 2 nation (Russia) has 160 submarines. The number 3 nation (Atlantis) has 149 submarines. While Japan has more submarines than Russia and Atlantis put together, I would not be surprised if the total submarine fleet displacements of each nation are fairly close together...

Have to agree that it's not too late: just as an example, if Brazil wanted to buy a pair of copies of the new Argentine Veinticinco de Mayo class ships, even with construction not getting underway until mid-1938 (because the German drydocks are full of the second pair of Sachsens), construction would complete by early 1942. And those are pretty large, powerful vessels, fast enough to run from a lot of trouble that they can't handle. Start building up the escort forces in 1936, place an order, and you'll be ready for the end (game) times.

Wow, Atlantis is the number 3 nation for subs? I would have thought others had more! It is interesting to note Japan has quite a few midget subs that swell the numbers some what.

Brazil might be able to make use of a small trade protection carrier but I agree with Hrolf the Argentine Veinticinco de Mayo class ships seem like a good fit.

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Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Brazil might be able to make use of a small trade protection carrier but I agree with Hrolf the Argentine Veinticinco de Mayo class ships seem like a good fit.

Heh, and it gives some level of commonality between the two allies, at least at a capital ship level.....

If Argentina is delaying starting a second ship until the summer of 1938, there's an opening in the building schedule for a Brazillian vessel starting in January of 1938.

Brazil has some carrier aircraft, and a number of Brazilian pilots and associated air-crews have joined the Chilean Mapuche effective as the first of 1937.

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Wow, Atlantis is the number 3 nation for subs? I would have thought others had more!

Yes. It is clear once you put the numbers next to eachother. Here's the top 10.

1 Japan, 318 subs.
2 Russia, 160 subs.
3 Atlantis, 149 subs.
4 Italy. 134 subs.
5 Britain, 125 subs.
6 France, 85 subs.
7 Iberia, 66 subs.
7 SAE, 66 subs.
9 Australia, 46 subs.
9 Greece, 46 subs.

There are no submarine numbers for China and Canada and the US list is incomplete so I gave those three nations a big, fat zero in my list.

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It is interesting to note Japan has quite a few midget subs that swell the numbers some what.

135 biber-like midget subs to be exact, which is why I said that tonnage-wise, the top three would be close (without the midget subs, Japan would have 183 submarines).

The US has 32 subs at this point in time.

Of the top couple Japan has loads of mini submarines and Atlantis and Russia still have lots of ancient submarines from the 1910s.

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Originally posted by Rooijen10
There are no submarine numbers for China and Canada and the US list is incomplete so I gave those three nations a big, fat zero in my list.

Canada has 6 elderly H-class hand-me-downs that I could never find specs for. Thus, they're in the OrBat but don't have their own entry in the encyclopedia.

As for comments of it being 'too late' for building something, two thoughts;

1) It's been mentioned before, but there's no pre-planned enddate. While springsharp doesn't have provisions after 1950 or for missle or other advanced weapons, as long as the sim is still being fun, i don't see why it can't continue in some form.

2) Even if there was an end-date, none of the nations or people in them would be aware of it; Your naval planning staff isn't thinking "Well, if we don't have it built by 1939 WE ALL CEASE TO EXIST!!!". Just like many nations had building programs interrupted by wars, if WW ever ends I'm sure many nations will have unfinished ships on the ways.

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Of the top couple Japan has loads of mini submarines

Like I said, 135 of these...

There is one at Liberty Park, but the way it is now placed, I don't like the angle I have on it to take a picture.

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Canada has 6 elderly H-class hand-me-downs that I could never find specs for.

You should have tried something. After all, since Canada was part of the CT, it would have been a good thing to know how much sub tonnage you had in use and how much you could still use for subs.

Something like this perhaps. Quick sim and it could be improved I guess...

H class, Canada Coastal Submarine laid down 1915

Displacement:
463 t light; 473 t standard; 494 t normal; 510 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
160.00 ft / 160.00 ft x 18.00 ft x 12.00 ft (normal load)
48.77 m / 48.77 m x 5.49 m x 3.66 m

Armament:
1 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
Weight of broadside 6 lbs / 3 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators plus batteries,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 634 shp / 473 Kw = 13.00 kts
Range 1,600nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 37 tons

Complement:
52 - 68

Cost:
£0.029 million / $0.117 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 tons, 0.1%
Machinery: 24 tons, 4.9%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 338 tons, 68.4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 31 tons, 6.2%
Miscellaneous weights: 101 tons, 20.4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
315 lbs / 143 Kg = 55.8 x 2.2 " / 57 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 0.4 ft / 0.1 m
Roll period: 11.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 0 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.89 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 12.65 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Forecastle (20%): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Mid (50%): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Stern: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Average freeboard: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.9%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 0.0%
Waterplane Area: 1,919 Square feet or 178 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 320%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 114 lbs/sq ft or 557 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 4.57
- Longitudinal: 3.27
- Overall: 3.56
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
Ship has quick, lively roll, not a steady gun platform
Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

Ballast => 95 tons
8 torpedoes (0.7 tons/torpedo) => 5.6 tons

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Canada has 6 elderly H-class hand-me-downs that I could never find specs for.

Details on the H-Class here and here. They were quite widely built and fairly successful for their size.

Oh god, submarines captured this thread!

but not anymore, for Russia at least.

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... and Atlantis and Russia still have lots of ancient submarines from the 1910s.

Russian WWI subs have all been replaced or rebuilt. The oldest Russian naval sub class is a 1912 vintage rebuilt in 1927.

New-built subs start in 1925.

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Oh god, submarines captured this thread!

And they won't let go!

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Originally posted by Rooijen10

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Canada has 6 elderly H-class hand-me-downs that I could never find specs for.

You should have tried something. After all, since Canada was part of the CT, it would have been a good thing to know how much sub tonnage you had in use and how much you could still use for subs.

I had a rough guess for CT reasons (based on the wiki article RA posted), and Canada's more interested in ASW than building her own Subs, really, so I wasn't worried about exceeding any limits. Case-in-point, Canada's been out of the CT for years and still hasn't built any subs. I'm mostly assuming they're being used in training and practice roles due to their age, keeping core crews trained should newer subs come into service, and giving the ASW assets something to train against.

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Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc

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Originally posted by Rooijen10
There are no submarine numbers for China and Canada and the US list is incomplete so I gave those three nations a big, fat zero in my list.

Canada has 6 elderly H-class hand-me-downs that I could never find specs for. Thus, they're in the OrBat but don't have their own entry in the encyclopedia.

I have a sim for the H-class, as Ireland is buying five in Q3/37. I'll send it to you.

*EDIT*:

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H-boat, British Submarine laid down 1918

Displacement:
398 t light; 407 t standard; 423 t normal; 436 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
171.00 ft / 171.00 ft x 15.33 ft x 10.20 ft (normal load)
52.12 m / 52.12 m x 4.67 m x 3.11 m

Armament:
1 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
2 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 1918 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 6 lbs / 3 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators plus batteries,
Electric motors, 1 shaft, 564 shp / 421 Kw = 13.00 kts
Range 2,985nm at 7.50 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 29 tons

Complement:
46 - 60

Cost:
£0.035 million / $0.139 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 20 tons, 4.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 292 tons, 69.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 25 tons, 5.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 85 tons, 20.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
247 lbs / 112 Kg = 43.6 x 2.2 " / 57 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 0.3 ft / 0.1 m
Roll period: 11.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 0 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.554
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.15 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 13.08 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Stern: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Average freeboard: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 0.0 %
Waterplane Area: 1,782 Square feet or 166 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 322 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 106 lbs/sq ft or 516 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 4.97
- Longitudinal: 2.09
- Overall: 2.59
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
Ship has quick, lively roll, not a steady gun platform
Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

This is as accurate to the known specs as I can get it.

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Originally posted by Rooijen10
9 Greece, 46 subs.

Did the Greek subs not get placed in the encyclopedia?? I don't see ANY Greek subs at all.

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Originally posted by HoOmAn
Oh god, submarines captured this thread!

I got my ship, write now at your own risk.