WesWorld

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Originally posted by Red Admiral

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Then the proposed Italian and Argentine tanks would be cold war...

Well, there are the wartime 75/70 and 88/71 guns...

Currently armour thicknesses are around 50mm at most, which is penetrable by a 47-50mm gun at ~ 1000m, which is around the practical maximum range. The shells don't go bang enough, which leads to low velocity 75mms, which have a shorter practical range but similar penetration. Now, with thicker armour appearing, like the 63mm sloped at 60° on the newest Atlantean tanks...

Right, because you armor to resist the guns you're most likely to meet, and you gun to overcome your enemy's armor. Currently, the guns are in the lead of that contest, and the armor is playing catch-up.

I was commenting on the assertion since the Russians did´t mount such a long gun until ´43 then it was a ´43 tank. Neither the italians nor Argrntines mounted that kind of guns on their tanks until the cold war (excl. the Semovente M41M da 90/53). ignoring all other aspects

EDIT: Brocks comment came in between

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Originally posted by Vukovlad
Neither the italians nor Argrntines mounted that kind of guns on their tanks until the cold war (excl. the Semovente M41M da 90/53). ignoring all other aspects

We're a fair way off our time line now. I'm pretty sure Japan didn't start building T-34 tanks in the mid 1930s either.

Well, I don't blame Walter for not wanting to build the Chi-Ha.

Well, they aren´t building them here either, they are building Type 96 ;)

As a curious tidbit In the game "When Tigers Fight" ( an alt history with the Axis winning the war followed by a German -Japanese war in 1948) the japanese copies the T-34 which among others equip the "Emperors Loyal Hebrews" Army....

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Originally posted by Vukovlad
Well, they aren´t building them here either, they are building Type 96

As a curious tidbit In the game "When Tigers Fight" ( an alt history with the Axis winning the war followed by a German -Japanese war in 194 the japanese copies the T-34 which among others equip the "Emperors Loyal Hebrews" Army....

Huh, interesting. That would be a very interesting matchup, too, mostly because of distance - but a victorious Reich would have mopped the floor with the victorious Japanese. Would have been a long and ugly war, but the outcome would be certain... that about what happened in the story?

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Well, I don't blame Walter for not wanting to build the Chi-Ha.

Don't worry, The 'Chi-Hahahaha' is around. It would have been a sin not to use it.
http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?postid=56679#post56679
... there is even a little bit of it in the Type 96 tank!

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Originally posted by Rooijen10

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Well, I don't blame Walter for not wanting to build the Chi-Ha.

Don't worry, The 'Chi-Hahahaha' is around. It would have been a sin not to use it.
http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?postid=56679#post56679
... there is even a little bit of it in the Type 96 tank!

Ah, right, I forgot. Still, I don't blame you for wanting to stop building it. Most of the historical Japanese tanks I've seen look... well, a bit pathetic.

Yes and no, there were 4 games in the series covering the war, Tiger of Ethiopia, Black Gold/Texas Tea (battle for the Mideast), Mississippi Banzai (North America), When Tigers Fight (German counter offensive),and Triumph of the will (an weserubnung kind of gambe to invade Japan)

There are some fun special units the mentioned ELH, The Indian tribal army in japnaese US, the German KKK Night Rider legion and so on. Even if the Germans hold the tech advantage the japanese have some specials that makes life interesting for Germany, remember that a lot of know how has flooded into Japan

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Originally posted by Red Admiral
Now, with thicker armour appearing, like the 63mm sloped at 60° on the newest Atlantean tanks...

To my knowledge (you'll have to ask Hrolf to be sure) thats the equivilent of 63mm with the slope. Its acctually 50mm.

Correct, the equivalent of 63mm armor, NOT 63mm armor at 60 degrees. What TS shows on it's summary page is the equivalent armor NOT the actual armor thickness.

..and IIRC the actual thickness was 50mm?

I'm not sure, I didn't do the AT-35 design, did I? I know I did the AT-27 and the AT-32, but I don't think I did the AT-35.

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Most of the historical Japanese tanks I've seen look... well, a bit pathetic.

But easy to ship around the Pacific, which is more important. Some of the later ones weren't amiss. There's always the 120ton O-I tank as well with a 105mm gun.

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What TS shows on it's summary page is the equivalent armor NOT the actual armor thickness.

Well, tanksharp shows the geometrical equivalent of armour. In fact, because of how shells behave it'll be a bit higher than that for angled plates, though it varies a lot. 63mm = 45mm@45°?

What I've been playing around with recently. Yes, it looks too modern, but angular shapes are easy to build and repair.

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Ah, right, I forgot. Still, I don't blame you for wanting to stop building it. Most of the historical Japanese tanks I've seen look... well, a bit pathetic.

Who said Japan has stopped producing it?

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But easy to ship around the Pacific, which is more important.

Precisely. Not all battles will be fought on the mainland.

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There's always the 120ton O-I tank as well with a 105mm gun.

Coming soon to a factory near you.

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Yes, it looks too modern,

I think it helps if you remove those smoke dischargers and use a simpler MG mount. it might also work if you fasten all kind of stuff on the sides of the tank and turret.

May also want to add a radio operator/hull machinegunner to the front of the vehicle: in hindsight, the machinegun wasn't really all that useful, the radios of the period are fragile and fiddly enough that having a dedicated operator makes more than a little sense.

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Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
I'm not sure, I didn't do the AT-35 design, did I? I know I did the AT-27 and the AT-32, but I don't think I did the AT-35.

Acctually I'm sure you did Hrolf. I unfortunately don't know what I did with the orriginal file just yet.

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Originally posted by Brockpaine
The Japanese 3"/50cal gun on the Type 96 is longer by caliber than any 3" gun historically fitted to the Russian T-34. The longest 3" gun ever fitted to the Russian T-34s is the 76.2mm/42.5cal F-34 (ZiS-5) gun - the original T-34 had a 76.2mm/30.5cal gun, which is entirely in line with the current Iberian versions of the Type 96.

The Japanese 3"/50cal gun won't be surpassed by a real-life T-34 gun until you compare it with the Russian ZIS-S-53 85mm/54.6 cal gun, which started development from the M1939 AA gun in 1943. So yes, the Japanese tanks really are 1943 tanks in 1936. The Iberian tanks are least fall within the pale of what is possible.

Which is exactly why I've stated its far ahead of the realistic design in the past, as has Gavin as well. There simply isn't a tank out there that justify's a HV 75mm gun yet, even by accident.

Hah, I found the AT-35 design sheet!

The actual armor on the AT-35 is 40mm at 50 degrees for the hull front, and 60mm at 30 degrees for the turret front.

I'll go run it through my updated sheet and see what happens.

Here's how it comes out of the new sheet (with some armor shaved off the deck and belly to keep the weight down).

Vehicle Name AT-35
Vehicle Type Tank

Length 5.76 meters
Width 2.94 meters
Height 2.65 meters

Crew 3.00 men
Passengers 0.00 men

Weight Breakdown
Crew Weight 0.36 metric tons
Passenger Weight 0.00 metric tons
Miscellaneous Weight 0.07 metric tons
Armor Weight 11.20 metric tons
Armament Weight 0.45 metric tons
Ammunition Weight 0.70 metric tons
Engine Weight 1.65 metric tons
Fuel Weight 0.32 metric tons
APU Weight 0.00 metric tons
Energy Bank Weight 0.08 metric tons
Transmission Weight 0.85 metric tons
Amphibious Equipment Weight 0.00 metric tons
Suspension Weight 1.57 metric tons
Track Weight 2.50 metric tons
Road Wheel Weight 0.86 metric tons
Structural Weight 4.77 Metric tons
Applique Armor Package A 0.00 metric tons
Applique Armor Package B 0.00 metric tons
Cargo Payload 0.00 metric tons

Mobility and Performance Breakdown

Engine 400.00 horsepower
Fuel Capacity 100.00 gallons
Maximum Hull Speed (water) 6.70 MPH

Baseline Upgraded (A) Upgraded (A+B)
Combat Weight 20.63 20.63 20.63 metric tons
Growth Capability (Transmission) 12.09 12.09 12.09 metric tons
Growth Capability (Suspension) 1.37 1.37 1.37 metric tons
Ground Pressure 11.15 11.15 11.15 PSI
Power/Weight Ratio 19.39 19.39 19.39 hp/metric ton
Top Speed 35.14 35.14 35.14 MPH
Operating Range 109.86 109.86 109.86 miles

Amphibious Performance Breakdown
Density of Vehicle 0.85 0.85 0.85 g/cm3
Vehicle Freeboard (Transiting) -0.48 -0.48 -0.48 meters
Vehicle Freeboard (Dropped In) -1.29 -1.29 -1.29 meters
Vehicle Draft (Transiting) 2.13 2.13 2.13 meters
Vehicle Draft (Dropped in) 2.94 2.94 2.94 meters
Water Speed #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0! MPH
Operating Range In Water #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0! miles

Armament Breakdown
Hull Turret AA
Rifle Calibre MGs 0.00 1.00 0.00
HMGs 0.00 0.00 0.00

Hull Turret Total
ATGMs 0.00 0.00 0.00 rounds stowed
Rifle Calibre 0.00 2,000.00 2,000.00 rounds stowed
HMG Calibre 0.00 0.00 0.00 rounds stowed

Calibre (mm) # in Hull # in Turret Rounds (hull) Rounds (Turret)
Cannon/Gun 1 57.00 0.00 1.00 0 110
Cannon/Gun 2 0.00 0.00 0.00 0 0

BASELINE PROTECTION LEVELS
KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Hull Armor 52.22 52.22 Resistant to Soviet 30x210mm M53 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Hull Armor 27.07 27.07 Resistant to 12.7 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Hull Armor 28.87 28.87 Resistant to 12.7 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Hull Armor 8.00 8.00 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Hull Floor Armor 10.00 10.00 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything

KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Turret Armor 69.28 69.28 Resistant to 40mm L70 M56 AP Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Turret Armor 28.87 28.87 Resistant to 12.7 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Turret Armor 28.87 28.87 Resistant to 12.7 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Turret Armor 8.00 8.00 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything