WesWorld

Today the Ministry of Transport and the Fuerza Aerea Argentina annouced that the 1937 Talons Over Cordoba Fighter Meet will take place between August 1st-10th 1937 at Cordoba Airbase.

Argentina shall be represented by;

No1. Lieutenant de Aero Roja [Holder of the Argentine Nation to the Valour in Combat Medal (Medalla La Nacion Argentina al Valor en Combate) and the Order of the Liberator General San Martin (Orden del Libertador General San Martin) Comendador Grade] flying the third pre-production FMA I-01-II Buchon fighter

No2. Flight Capitan S. Castro [holder of Argentine to the Wounded in Combat Medal (Medalla La Nacion Argentina al Herido en Combate)] flying a standard Ripon-Bloch RB.134 in Commando de Aviacion Naval colours

The RAF shall enter;
No3 Group Captain Lionel Mandrake flying the fourth prototype Hawker Tornado powered by a 1,980hp RR Vulture II 24-cylinder engine

No 4 Flying Officer Basil Heath flying the all-over blue prototype Supermarine Spitfire Mk II with a 1,100hp Merlin V-12 engine


RULES OF ENTRY AND COMPETITION

1. Any nation can enter a maximum of two fighters, that is to say the primary role of the aircraft must be to intercept and destroy enemy aircraft; they can different types or the same and may be twin-engined types
2. Carrier based fighters are also welcome
3. Entries must be production machines, that is to say they must be in regular service or approaching the end of testing and entering service within six months. This does not cover any modifications to service machines
4. Engine tuning is allowed and superchargers may be fitted to improve performance. Fuel additives are prohibited. Special racing spec engines are prohibited. Each team can bring two engines for each aircraft entered but both must be the same model and set up identically and one engine must be a spare only, to be fitted after qualifications. It cannot be fitted once the main events begin
5. No armament to be fitted, ballast to weight of guns must be added
6. All aircraft must be fitted with at least a radio receiver for safety reasons
7. Pilots must have over three years of flying experience on single-engined types, offical state or company test pilots are allowed to compete but other civilian pilots are not. Rank of the pilot is not an issue.
8. All monoplanes and biplanes will compete in separate race events, all duels will also be separate but an extra Grand Final Duel will feature both types of fighter. Bombing and altitude and cross country races will be of mixed groups. Pilots will score points and these will be tallied to declare a winner.


ENTRY
For my ease of calculations and information please supply names and rank of pilots, full technical data especially speed, rate of climb and weight figures. Numbers assigned will be in order of application from No.5 onwards. If you wish you can apply by PM.

Please note that total spaces are restricted to 48 slots (8 groups of 6). Note that the eighth group is for twin-engined planes and so only 6 twin-engined fighters can be entered. I propose to add two NPC pilots this year so that leaves 42 spaces to apply for.

Denmark and Iberia will be present again, details to follow, after I've got the Q1 news out of the way!

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
ENTRY
For my ease of calculations and information please supply names and rank of pilots, full technical data especially speed, rate of climb and weight figures.

Odd as it might be, the SAE would be willing to send two crews. However, I have no idea how I could provide these requested figures for the fictional planes the RSAF fields... :o/

Germany will be sending 2 pilots with their aircraft. This years aircraft will be He-100 A-5s powered by new DB-601EMs, with Flugkapitan Werner Molders flying the gloss-white aircraft and Fluglieutenant Adolph Galland in the gloss-black.


The US will be sending 2 pilots as well, this year's mounts will be the P-42 again.

From Australia come the following aircraft...



AA-5 Kelpie (aka Lake Eyre Monster)

Landbased version (RG)

Power: 2x Rolls Royce Merlins 1100hp

Length: 35 ft
Wingspan: 40 ft
Height: 13 ft
Wing area: 280 ft²

Empty, 8500 lb
Max Take Off, 15000 lb

Max Speed, 415mph
Range, 770miles

Armament: Four 7.62/0.3in machine guns, two 20mm cannons

Designed to compete at the Schneider Races, this plane will soon enter service in a long range air superority role. Flying her will be Captain Peters, who also flew her race sister at the 35 Schneider Races.



***





CAC-11 Strix (based on OTL Weiss WM-23 Ezustnyil )

Power: Pratt & Witney 1,350 hp R-1830 Twin Wasp

Armament: Four 7.62/0.3in machine guns

Size: Wingspan - 34ft 9 in
Length - 34ft
Wing area - 250sq ft

Weight: Empty - 5500lb
Max take-off - 9000lb

Performance: Max speed - 340mph
Ceiling - 29,000ft
Range - 900 miles
Climb - 3200ft per minute

http://www.aviastar.org/air/hungary/weiss_wm-23.php

CAC's new fighter design. Uses the He-100 wing design. She will be flown by Captain Robert Henry Maxwell (Bobby) Gibbes.



The two Mexican entries coming soon...

If those problems with aircraft stats can be overcome the SAE will send two famous RSAF pilots to Talons ´37 plus additional ground crews.

1.) Wing Commander Michel Endress, bearer of the Knight´s Cross to the Military Order of the Empires Greatest Defenders, bearer of the Nkwe ya Gauta (Golden Leopard - South Africa's highest military decoration) and four time recipient of the Combat Medal; leader of the all-time ranking list of all South African fighter pilots, the man who achieved 49 confirmed victories in air combat and destroyed innumerable targets on the ground

2.) Wing Commander Jeoren van Veen, Companion of the Distinguished Service Order, bearer of the Nkwe ya Selefera (Silver Leopard), bearer of the iPhrothiya yeBhronzi (Bronze Protea) and two time recipient of the Combat Medal who achieved confirmed victory in 27 air-to-air battles.

Chile will be sending FACh pilot Teniente Horatio Catarrase flying a standard Accrisius F-12 Aves, and the Armada de Chile Arma Aérea (Chilean Navy Air Arm) will send Teniente Capitan Patricio Mistral in one of the FMA I-01N Buchons.

Accrisius F-12 Aves Aircraft Specifications:
- Speed: 329 mph at 15,000 ft
- Rate of Climb: 1,617 fpm
- Weight (maximum): 7,500 lbs
- Weight (empty): 6,211 lbs

FMA I-01N Buchon Aircraft Specifications: [1]
- Speed: 334mph
- Rate of Climb: 2,471fpm
- Weight (maximum): 6,000 lbs
- Weight (empty): 4,796 lbs

[1]Stats of regular I-01, I presume I-01N is the same?

--------------------------

Bulgaria will enter Podporucik (Lt.) Lidiya Ivanova again, with her Spitfire...

...but unfortunately I already know OOC she will be engaged with other duties in August 1937. So the Bulgarians will enter, drop, and give their reservation to the Irish, who will send...

--------------------------

Flying Lieutenant Eoin Clancy in a standard Hawker Hurricane.

I will figure out what exactly the Dutch and Belgians are sending in a bit.

The Dutch will either field a single engine D.XIXD and a twin G.1A/B/C or a G.1A/B/C and a twin D.XXIII.

I'm still debating if the D.XXIII should be out then, I was figuring late 37/early 38, so probably will send it, as at the very least it will be within 6 months of active service.

Belgium will send an R-37B, mainly differing in better cooling than the -37A which had such issues. Not sure what their second may be, possibly another -37B.

I'll edit this for specs and pilots in the next couple of days.

Don't worry Hoo, give me what you've got. I can base most other things on the real plane its based on. If an aircraft is wholly fictional (like Wes' aircraft) then I can have headaches working ot likely weights etc.

Italy will be sending Bergamini's air training school again (depending on date) with a Fiat CR.36 and Macchi Folgore, both of reach have recently come into service rather than being prototypes. They have excellent agility, especially in the vertical plane. Pilots will be Cpt Ricco and Lt Tronchon. There are too many problems with the Fiat Centauro for a quick return.



Fiat CR.36
Year: 1936 Crew: 1 Engine: 1 * 1270hp Alfa-Romeo Vortice RC.20/50 2v
Wing Span: 8.51m Length: 7.63m Height: 2.40m Wing Area: 13.86m2
Empty Weight: 1960kg Max.Weight: 2300kg
Speed: 645km/h@5000m Ceiling:11600m Combat Radius: 400km
Climb Rate: 1130m/min (3700fpm) Wing Loading: 166kg/m2(36lb/sqft) Power/Weight: 0.55hp/kg (0.25hp/lb)


Macchi Folgore Serie I

Crew: 1
Length: 8.86m Span: 10.58m Height: 3.50m Wing Area: 16.82m­^2
Empty Weight: 2491kg Maximum Weight: 2930kg
Engine: 1 x Alfa-Romeo Vortice RC.20/50 2v
Maximum Speed: 617km/h@5000m
Rate of climb: 1540m/min Service ceiling: 11500m
Range: 764km
Armament: 4 x 13.2mm Scotti mgs in forward fuselage

Will there also be a contest for floatplanes, flying boats, bombers or ground attack aircraft?

Engine tuning is allowed - what does that mean? Is there a limit, i.e. 5% or 10% increased performance - turning a 1200hp engine into a 1320hp beast?

Btw, how do you rate experience versus technical stats? A moderate plane in aces hands might be superior to a superb planes with a less skilled pilot...

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Will there also be a contest for floatplanes, flying boats, bombers or ground attack aircraft?

Talons is for fighters, some other country could sponsor such a contest.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral

Macchi Folgore Serie I

Crew: 1
Length: 8.86m Span: 10.58m Height: 3.50m Wing Area: 16.82m­^2
Empty Weight: 2491kg Maximum Weight: 2930kg
Engine: 1 x Alfa-Romeo Vortice RC.20/50 2v
Maximum Speed: 617km/h@5000m
Rate of climb: 1540m/min Service ceiling: 11500m
Range: 764km
Armament: 4 x 13.2mm Scotti mgs in forward fuselage

Where'd you get those climb rate figures for the C.202? All the data I've seen on the Macchi give it a rather lower of climb, one more in keeping with the size of it's engine and it's wing loading.

Quoted

Where'd you get those climb rate figures for the C.202? All the data I've seen on the Macchi give it a rather lower of climb, one more in keeping with the size of it's engine and it's wing loading.

From the Regia Aeronautica's acceptance paper. Rate of climb was extremely good, better than for the C.205 as the difference in power between the engines wasn't much but weight a lot less. Climb to 1000m in 39s, 2000m in 1m 28s. Those figures are for the later Series with extra wing guns as well. Engine is different in WW with slightly more power at altitude available resulting in a small gain in speed and a small increase in empty weight.

Edit. Serie I, 34s to 1000m 1m 19s to 2000m.

As I can see it, the rate of climb of 1540 m/min is only valid for the first 1000 meters that the plane climbs. (1000/39)*60 = 1538 m/min. When you look at climbing to 2000 meters, the rate of climb decreases. (2000/88)*60 = 1363 m/min. (for the serie I, the numbers would be 1764 and 1518). I think that the 1086 m/min given on wikipedia would be a lot more reliable as 'average rate of climb' when climbing to a greater altitude.

http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/titl…-Folgore/t/1322

Time to 5000m for the IX is given as 4 minutes and 40 seconds and would give a rate of climb of 1071 m/min.

Measuring the time it takes to get to 5000 meters gives a much more accurate average rate of climb than measuring the time it takes to get to 1000 meters.


edit: @#$% smilies!!

The values always quoted is "initial climb rate at zero elevation" or "maximum climb rate" (which maybe around 1000m but not much higher). Those average climb rates aren't used and aren't accurate as its an exponential decay with altitude. Otherwise its time to height which is quoted. The C.202 looses out a bit at higher altitudes as the critical altitude for the engine isn't that high.

Hmm apparently I won't be editing my prior post after all, just making new ones willy nilly !!!

The Belgian contingent from last year will return. This consists of

Capitaine-Commandant (Reserves) Fernand Jacquet, master of the Gosselies flying school. Capitaine Jacquet is the former commander of the Groupe de Chasse and a great war ace. The Capitaine is present as an observer.

Pilot Officer Count Rodolphe Ghislain Charles De Hemricourt De Grunne flying the R-37B

Flight Officer Charles J.V.G. Demoulin also flying the R-37B. His piloting of a foreign Hurricane was cause for much angst among folks back home, despite the decent showing many felt Belgian pilots should fly Belgian planes if possible.

A larger team of flight engineers joins the team this time.

R-37b



The R-37A was found to have heating problems, which was eventually traced to three elements – the cowling failed to provide sufficient airflow, the oil cooling system was not working properly, and the earlier model 14N engines did not deal with heat as efficiently as desired. The 14N 48/49 engine features improved allows and radiating surfaces, while the cowling has been widened and a secondary fan installed with the spinner. The oil system problems have been corrected and the Belgians have high hopes for their plane, entering a pair.

Crew: 1
Length: 27.6 ft. Span: 37.8ft Wing Area: 215 ft2
Empty Weight: 5307lbs Maximum Weight: 6062lbs
Engine: 1x 1,160hp Gnome-Rhone 14N 48/49
Stresses : 350 IAS, 10G

Clean performance :
Clean Weight : 5935lbs
Maximum Speed: 310kts @ 15,757ft. Service ceiling: 39,000feet
Rate of climb:
Clean : 2,712 fpm
Light : 3,132 fpm

Wingloading : 28 lbs/ft2 Range: 540nm
Armament: 2 x 20mm cannon, 4 x 7.62mm MGs
Armor : 10mm disk

edit: reformatted data for better presentation

Answers to Hoo's questions.

I'd expect tuning to be just that, it should not involve serious modifications. Racing engines are banned so any engine much be a production engine. Some work is allowed to increase performance but essentially it must be a standard engine. Superchargers may be added. I expect folks to use their own reasonable judgement.
Fuel additives are banned and for the record Hrolf asked if he could use MW-30 or MW-50 and I said no this year. Its an issue that is thorny and will be left until next year's rules whether it is a fuel additive or a performance modification or a service issue system.

I assume an ace, combat pilot, veteran flyer with experience on many different types and long service history, or a test pilot to be very skilled. Basic service pilots, young pilots or pilots from lesser nations with reletively poorer training do less well. The longer the plane has been in service also has an effect since the pilots have had more time to train on a particular type or mark. Thus new planes suffer from teething problems, engine problems and piloting errors or reduced performance. Look what happened last year when a pilot died because he didn't know the maximum safe limits. I factor these things in when I write. I balance what's realistic with what makes a good story. The points total is tallied as I write, folks go up and down the points table and the results are not planned in any way. Last years result was as much a surprise to me as to to everyone else.


I've thought about a bombing contest (no public displays but a pure military event) to be held by the RAF at Orford Ness in Suffolk. I've roughly thoguht about what types of excercises could be done, long range flying, navigation at night, bombing trials, dive bombing etc. But I lack enough hard data on bomb accuracy to make a proper impartial report. I could do dive bombers easily enough but various types of bombsight at altitude would make for varying perfromances. I any folks have any ideas or info please feel free to PM me.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
Answers to Hoo's questions.

I'd expect tuning to be just that, it should not involve serious modifications. Racing engines are banned so any engine must be a production engine. Some work is allowed to increase performance but essentially it must be a standard engine. Superchargers may be added. I expect folks to use their own reasonable judgement.
Fuel additives are banned and for the record Hrolf asked if he could use MW-30 or MW-50 and I said no this year. Its an issue that is thorny and will be left until next year's rules whether it is a fuel additive or a performance modification or a service issue system.

<sigh> It's a pity, too, the MW-30 boost was looking really good......


On tuning, I'd expect it to be limited to maybe 5% of normal power, it 's not going to have the same effect as adding a supercharger (though most competitive engines at Talons already have superchargers, just to get reasonable behavior at altitude).