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1

Sunday, February 1st 2009, 5:12am

CNS Vanguardia

Recent discussion about Antarctica gave me some ideas.

Quoted

[SIZE=3]CNS Vanguardia, Chilean Sealer/Antarctic Patrol Ship laid down 1937[/SIZE]

Displacement:
3,138 t light; 3,272 t standard; 3,829 t normal; 4,275 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
362.69 ft / 360.89 ft x 42.65 ft (Bulges 49.21 ft) x 16.40 ft (normal load)
110.55 m / 110.00 m x 13.00 m (Bulges 15.00 m) x 5.00 m

Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (2x2 guns), 67.03lbs / 30.40kg shells, 1937 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1937 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 286 lbs / 130 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 350

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Ends: Unarmoured

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.57" / 40 mm 213.25 ft / 65.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.59" / 15 mm -

- Conning tower: 0.98" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 7,748 shp / 5,780 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,003 tons

Complement:
243 - 316

Cost:
£0.927 million / $3.706 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 36 tons, 0.9 %
Armour: 219 tons, 5.7 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 204 tons, 5.3 %
- Armament: 10 tons, 0.3 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 215 tons, 5.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,218 tons, 31.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 692 tons, 18.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,450 tons, 37.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,262 lbs / 2,840 Kg = 93.4 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 16.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.15
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.85

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.460
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.38 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 28
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m (10.66 ft / 3.25 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (25 %): 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
- Stern: 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
- Average freeboard: 14.55 ft / 4.44 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 128.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 118.4 %
Waterplane Area: 10,286 Square feet or 956 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 161 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 69 lbs/sq ft or 339 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.96
- Overall: 1.01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weights:
- 35 tons: Crane and hanger
- 50 tons: Two float/ski planes
- 200 tons: Ballast rocking tanks
- 200 tons: Reinforced icebreaker bow
- 20 tons: Heating
- 15 tons: Five two-man aerosans/snow tractors or two heavy long-ranged aerosans/snow tractors
- 930 tons: Cargo Areas


Theoretical design for a Chilean Antarctic cargo ship; a converted sealing ship hull, and hence having icebreaker strengthening (simmed as TDS).

Designed to take an expedition close to shore and use aerosans or snow-tractors to establish a base, or launch an exploration expedition to the South Pole. The planes will probably be Valdivia Twin Condors modified with floats or skis (an easy modification to make). The aerosans could be licensed from Russia, who makes a number of different models: what I'd want is an enclosed cabin, three to four men, and cargo space for an expedition to find them worthwhile.

When not in Antarctic use, it can make a good fisheries patrol ship for the Southern Ocean, or an icebreaker in my many fjords. Chile should have some military icebreakers anyways in my southern regions, not certain why I don't. It's an intermediate priority, though.

If an Antarctic Treaty is proposed, I'll simply acquire this vessel unarmed but place it in Armada ownership.

2

Sunday, February 1st 2009, 5:53am

Quoted

Chilean Sealer/Antarctic Patrol Ship laid down 1937

Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (2x2 guns), 67.03lbs / 30.40kg shells, 1937 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount

Big seals you're hunting there... :D

3

Sunday, February 1st 2009, 6:06am

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox

Quoted

Chilean Sealer/Antarctic Patrol Ship laid down 1937

Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (2x2 guns), 67.03lbs / 30.40kg shells, 1937 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount

Big seals you're hunting there... :D

Capitan Velasco took a deep drag on his best Havana cigar and downed the last swallow of Lyran wine before answering. "Professor, ought to know God grows 'em big South of Sixty. Mighty strange beasties I've seen in those seas. You never know just what you might run into." He stubbed out the cigar and grinned. "Tell you what, Professor. You buy another bottle Lyra's best for us to split, and I'll tell you some stories to raise all the hairs on your nether regions. Si?"

HoOmAn

Keeper of the Sacred Block Coefficient

  • Send private message

4

Sunday, February 1st 2009, 10:47am

First thought: That vessel would make a deadly pirate ship....

Second thought: Why put the guns on ships ends? Why not put them on the bow and have the adt deck free for large carge, crane or boat operations etc? And why so many guns on a ship obviously (?) meant to be used for peaceful operations?

Those guns need crews that you then have to feed in a deadly environment. So more cargo and stuff to carry. Doesn´t make sense to me if she is meant to be used for polar exploration first place.

5

Sunday, February 1st 2009, 6:22pm

For an Antartic patrol ship, would it not be a good idea to armour the bow?
You are going to run into pack ice at least some of the time.

6

Sunday, February 1st 2009, 7:17pm

The guns on the ends is a mistake, it's supposed to be an all-forward.

Second, I don't see this as a pure Antarctic expedition ship, but also as a patrol vessel for the Southern Ocean. In the Antarctic she really wouldn't need guns (note 1) but I figured she would in patrol ship mode.

Note 1: Which kinda begs the question why the Chinese Antarctic ship has 8" guns!

7

Sunday, February 1st 2009, 8:01pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
Second, I don't see this as a pure Antarctic expedition ship, but also as a patrol vessel for the Southern Ocean.


Even so, the round the world yachts regularly encounter ice in their trips across the Southern Ocean,
and would you want to be in the position where you couldn't respond to a call for help because of a weak bow?
I'm not talking ice breaker, just a little armouring.

8

Sunday, February 1st 2009, 9:22pm

Well, in my thought that ought to be covered by the "TDS" weight and the "200 tons: Reinforced icebreaker bow" miscellaneous weight (and also the ballast rocking tanks), as she is already intended to be an intermediate-sized icebreaker. Unless you're proposing that I add that strengthening as end belt instead?

9

Sunday, February 1st 2009, 9:38pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
Well, in my thought that ought to be covered by the "TDS" weight and the "200 tons: Reinforced icebreaker bow" miscellaneous weight (and also the ballast rocking tanks), as she is already intended to be an intermediate-sized icebreaker. Unless you're proposing that I add that strengthening as end belt instead?


Well, it would give a more accurate sim, trim particularly.

10

Sunday, February 1st 2009, 10:10pm

Okay, a few small fixes hither and yon. First version is an armed patrol ship/icebreaker; second is an unarmed vessel for pure Antarctic Expeditionary work.

Quoted

[SIZE=3]Vanguardia, Chilean Sealer/Antarctic Expeditionary Ship laid down 1937[/SIZE]

Displacement:
3,245 t light; 3,382 t standard; 3,950 t normal; 4,404 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
362.76 ft / 360.89 ft x 42.65 ft (Bulges 49.21 ft) x 16.40 ft (normal load)
110.57 m / 110.00 m x 13.00 m (Bulges 15.00 m) x 5.00 m

Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (2x2 guns), 67.03lbs / 30.40kg shells, 1937 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1937 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 286 lbs / 130 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 350

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Ends: 1.57" / 40 mm 161.98 ft / 49.37 m 7.78 ft / 2.37 m
0.92 ft / 0.28 m Unarmoured ends

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.57" / 40 mm 213.25 ft / 65.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.59" / 15 mm -

- Conning tower: 0.98" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 7,939 shp / 5,923 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,022 tons

Complement:
248 - 323

Cost:
£0.951 million / $3.805 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 36 tons, 0.9 %
Armour: 293 tons, 7.4 %
- Belts: 73 tons, 1.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 204 tons, 5.2 %
- Armament: 10 tons, 0.3 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 220 tons, 5.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,247 tons, 31.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 705 tons, 17.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,450 tons, 36.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,551 lbs / 2,972 Kg = 97.7 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 16.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.14
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.75

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.475
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.33 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 29
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m (10.66 ft / 3.25 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (25 %): 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
- Stern: 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
- Average freeboard: 14.62 ft / 4.46 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 125.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117.5 %
Waterplane Area: 10,419 Square feet or 968 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 160 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 70 lbs/sq ft or 343 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.88
- Overall: 1.02
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weights:
- 35 tons: Crane and hanger
- 50 tons: Two float/ski planes
- 200 tons: Ballast rocking tanks
- 200 tons: Reinforced icebreaker bow
- 20 tons: Heating
- 15 tons: Five two-man aerosans/snow tractors or two heavy long-ranged aerosans/snow tractors
- 930 tons: Cargo Areas


Quoted

[SIZE=3]Vanguardia, Chilean Sealer/Antarctic Patrol Ship laid down 1937[/SIZE]

Displacement:
3,303 t light; 3,382 t standard; 3,950 t normal; 4,404 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
362.76 ft / 360.89 ft x 42.65 ft (Bulges 49.21 ft) x 16.40 ft (normal load)
110.57 m / 110.00 m x 13.00 m (Bulges 15.00 m) x 5.00 m

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Ends: 1.57" / 40 mm 161.98 ft / 49.37 m 7.78 ft / 2.37 m
0.92 ft / 0.28 m Unarmoured ends

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.57" / 40 mm 213.25 ft / 65.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m

- Conning tower: 0.98" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 7,939 shp / 5,923 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,022 tons

Complement:
248 - 323

Cost:
£0.799 million / $3.195 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Armour: 283 tons, 7.2 %
- Belts: 73 tons, 1.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 204 tons, 5.2 %
- Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 220 tons, 5.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,351 tons, 34.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 647 tons, 16.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,450 tons, 36.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,435 lbs / 3,372 Kg = 110.9 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 15.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.76

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.475
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.33 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 29
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m (10.66 ft / 3.25 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (25 %): 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
- Stern: 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
- Average freeboard: 14.62 ft / 4.46 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 111.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117.5 %
Waterplane Area: 10,419 Square feet or 968 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 182 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 76 lbs/sq ft or 372 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.14
- Longitudinal: 2.09
- Overall: 1.21
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, rides out heavy weather easily

Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weights:
- 35 tons: Crane and hanger
- 50 tons: Two float/ski planes
- 200 tons: Ballast rocking tanks
- 200 tons: Reinforced icebreaker bow
- 20 tons: Heating
- 15 tons: Five two-man aerosans/snow tractors or two heavy long-ranged aerosans/snow tractors
- 930 tons: Cargo Areas

11

Sunday, February 1st 2009, 10:14pm

I must admit Argentina has often toyed with the idea of a similar ship. Even for patrolling Southern Seas such a vessel is very useful.

12

Sunday, February 1st 2009, 10:37pm

Like it, but...

...after adding the end armour, you forgot to reduce your misc weight to compensate.

13

Sunday, February 1st 2009, 10:44pm

I just made the ship a tad heavier instead. It's still a pretty small vessel by the standards of other WW Antarctic vessels.

Other icebreakers:
Russian Belomore-class port icebreakers: 4,821 t normal
Russian Arctica-class icebreakers: 15,243 tonnes normal
Russian Rodzhestvenskiy-class icebreakers: 64,220 t normal
Atlantean Adventure-class Polar Vessel: 24,139 t normal
Chinese Zhuhai-class Arctic/Seaplane Carrier: 11,340 t normal

14

Sunday, February 1st 2009, 10:49pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
I must admit Argentina has often toyed with the idea of a similar ship. Even for patrolling Southern Seas such a vessel is very useful.


I didn't get involved in the land grab myself
(Danes -Thanks, but it's white enough in winter at home!. Iberians - Snow, we don't do no stinking snow!"),
so no need here, but I have played with the idea,
but with no need, the tonnage went elsewhere!

15

Sunday, February 1st 2009, 10:52pm

Canada has a set of small-ish St. Roch types for the RCMP, and a pair of larger Polar Navigation ships, too. They've been delayed somewhat due to R&R needing repairs, and the rush to finish up the other capital ships, tho.


http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?threadid=3110&sid=

16

Sunday, February 1st 2009, 11:46pm

That ship looks just a weeeeeeeee bit modern to me.

17

Sunday, February 1st 2009, 11:56pm

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
That ship looks just a weeeeeeeee bit modern to me.

And to me, it looks a weeeeeeee bit topheavy! 8o :P

18

Sunday, February 1st 2009, 11:57pm

I recall that waves get pretty high in the lower latitudes, so I think you need a lot more freeboard, especially aft.

19

Sunday, February 1st 2009, 11:57pm

I should probably try editing it some more. All I really did was put the guns on a Polar-8 sketch someone sent me a while back...

But besides that....well, it's Canadian. At least the FTL drives are internal. :P

20

Monday, February 2nd 2009, 12:10am

I'd go for more freeboard as well. 100ft, yes thats ft, waves are not uncommon in those latitudes.

I'm not sure what you mean by ballast rocking tanks. Passive anti-rolling tanks should weigh about 2.5% of the displacement but take up a fair amount of the abovedecks space.

I'd have a look at HMS Endurance for a fairly similar ship. I think I'd personally go for triple expansion engines as well given the lower cost and greater reliability for this application. You don't really need 20knts speed either. Diesels are another option but aren't particularly widespread and cost more.