WesWorld

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
Cromwell 145mm and mounted medium 75mm
Challenger 167mm (or 178mm) mounted 17pdr
M4 Sherman 175mm mounted medium 75mm, 17pdr with a bit of a squeeze
T34 146mm mounted medium 75
T34-85 170mm mounted 85mm
Panzer V Panther 165mm mounted high velocity 75
Panzer IV 160mm
Tiger 183mm mounted 88mm

But those are the guns with the original turret

Not that the Sherman also had the 90mm (M-36B1) and 105mm (M-51) with new turrets

The Russians and Egyptians also mounted 100mm & 122mm guns in new turrets in the T-34

The UK mounted the 20 lbs in a new turret on the Cromwell (Charioteer)

Note that the original turret may be the the limiting factor not the turret ring.

175mm (the diameter of the Sherman's turret ring) seems to have been sufficient for most period weapons: consider that the Panther (with it's 165mm turret ring) was tested with the Schmalturm turret with an 88mm/71, a gun that has a lot more muzzle energy than the 90mm on the M-36B1. The Schmalturm was also SMALLER than the standard Panther turret, so it's not, per se, the size of the turret that's the issue.

The T-34 variants mounting bigger guns than 85mm were almost certainly (thought I'd have to look them up to be completely sure) based on the T-34/85, which had a larger turret ring than the T-34/76.

Note that the Charioteer had only a 3 man (driver, commander/gunner, loader) crew with it's new big gun, and I'm not at all sure it wasn't built on Challenger, vs Cromwell, hulls. Certainly the need was perceived to increase the size of the turret ring of the Cromwell to mount the 17 pounder, and it was done (the Cromwell had a 60 in (1.52 m) turret ring).

The layout of the turret was as important as the size but my point is that the turret ring although one of the factors is not the sole limiting factor a more obscure example when it comes to putting big guns in small tanks are the Swedish PVKV II & III mounting 75 & 57mm guns on Strv m/40L (the experiments were dropped since the vastly superior Centurion became available)

If your have a look at the diagram here you'll see that its an interference fit for the 88/71 in the Panther turret. Bigger is better.

Hrolf, change the order from 800 to 80,000 rifles. Must have been a typo!

OK, that makes a lot more sense..... Good, that will clear up some of the excess stock.

Sorry to bump this thread but in 1939 Argentina will order 40,000 7.92mm x 57 Solothurn Kar.35(S) automatic rifles now that funds are available.

Nothing else new to report for the Army except that updated data and OOBs can now be found in the Argentine section.

Uhm, the Kar.35(S) wasn't made in 7.92x57, only in 7x40.... Redesigning it for the 7.92x57 might be possible, but would take some time.

Well in was entered into the contest in 1937 so we could assume Solothurn has been doing something for the last two years to develop the rifle Argentina wants.

If its impossible then I guess I'll have to order something else. Maybe either the STPR-36 Radichkov or the Johnson semi-auto.

Switching from 7x40mm to 7.92x57 is, well, a pretty serious switch. Most of the occasions I recall a change of that magnitude being tried, it kinda ruined the gun. Adding another 1mm of width and 17mm of length is a pretty major change - might be more economical to start from scratch using the original rifle as a base.

I don't know the exact dimensions of the 7x40mm, so it might be easier than I make it out to be. If it were me, though... I'd buy the rifle in 7x40.

(I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying it'll be difficult and has a moderate probability of ruining the rifle.)

Ah well Argentina cancels it's order and instead orders 40,000 STPR-36 Radichkov rifles.

*Gives Inspector General of Infantry and Light Weapons a boot up the backside*

Bulgaria (and Switzerland) squee in joy and ring up their arsenals.

The competition allowed submitters their choice of cartridges, so the Solothurn was submitted in 7x40. Could it be scaled up? Possibly, though the example of the Garand suggests that's not an easy thing, necessarily. If Argentina is determined to keep the 7.92x57 cartridge, the STPR-36 is a more available choice.

The 1940 TOE is designed to emphasise the expeditionary nature of the Infantería de Marina and as such the Quartermaster and various other ancillary branches have been cut back as lading ships are expected to be responsible for the majority of quartermaster functions. An extra Artillery Bandera has been added to increase firepower while the semi-official Tabor has become the main fighting unit. Support firepower has been increased by attaching Support platoons to each Tabor while retaining the normal support Company which is no longer split.

Infantería de Marina Brigada Organization (1940 TOE)

Brigada Staff Company
1 Mapping Platoon
1 Signal Company
1 Radio Company
1 Reconnaissance Company (6 LMG)

3 Tercio, each with 3 Bandera each with
1 Bandera Staff Company (3 LMG)
1 Reconnaissance Platoon (3 LMG)
2 Tabors (17 LMG, 3 HMG and 3 81mm mortars each)
Each Tabor consists of one Staff Platoon (1 LMG), two companies (8 LMG each) and one support platoon (3 HMG and 3 81mm mortars) Note: A Tabor consists of two companies as a kind of demi-battalion.
1 Heavy Support Company (6 HMG and 6 81mm mortars)

Artillería de Campaña Regiment
Artillery Regimental Staff and Staff Battery
1 Mapping Platoon
1 Signal Platoon
3 Artillería de Campaña Bandera, each with
Artillery Bandera Staff and Staff Battery (2 LMG each)
2 Batteries (four 75mm each)
1 Battery (four 80mm M-39 rocket-launchers [or 75mm guns until the launchers are delivered])
1 Observation Company
1 Ammunition Column

1 Antiaerea Artillería de Campaña Bandera
Antiaerea Artillería de Campaña Bandera Staff
1 Observation Company
1 Battery (four 75mm each)
3 Batteries (four 37mm each)

Pioneer Bandera
1 Bandera Staff Company (3 LMG)
3 Pioneer Companies (6 LMG each)
1 Bridging Column
1 Boat Column

Quartermaster Battalion
2 Supply Companies (motorised)
1 Field Bakery
1 Field Butcher Company

Medical Battalion
2 Medical Companies (motorised)
1 Ambulance Company
1 Field Hospital

Some new OOB's as the Army continues to refine itself.

The Corps troops have been altered slightly.

Corps Organization (TOE 1940)

Corps Staff Company
Corps Staff Signals Company
Corps Mapping Company
2 Military Police Companies (9 LMG)

Reconnaissance Battalion
1 Mounted Reconnaissance Company (9 LMG)
1 Bicycle Reconnaissance Company (9 LMG)
1 Motorised Staff Armoured Car Company (3 C-4M35 AC)
1 Motorised Armoured Car Company (12 C-4M35 AC)

Signals Battalion
2 Field Telephone Company (motorised)
2 Radio Companies (motorised)
2 Signal Companies

Corps Artillería Regiment
Artillería Regimental Staff and Staff Battery
1 Mapping Platoon
2 Artillería Battalions, each with
Artillería Battalion Staff and Staff Battery (2 LMG each)
3 Batteries (four 155mm each)
1 Observation Company
1 Artillería Battalion with
Artillería Battalion Staff and Staff Battery (2 LMG each)
3 Batteries (four 75mm each)
1 Observation Company

Antiaerea Artillería Regiment
1 Regiment Staff Company (2 LMG)
1 Metrological Platoon
1 Observation Company (2 LMG)
4 Batteries (four 75mm each)
4 Batteries (four 37mm each)

Anti-Tank Battalion
1 Battalion Staff Company (2 LMG)
1 Observation Company (2 LMG)
3 Batteries (six 37mm each)

Quartermaster Battalion
4 Supply Companies (motorised)
1 Repair Workshop
2 Field Bakeries
2 Field Butcher Companies
1 Field Post Office

Medical Battalion
3 Medical Companies (motorised)
3 Ambulance Companies (motorised)
2 Field Hospitals
2 Veterinary Companies


The Brigade now replaces the former Divisions, Ten divisions are now consolidated into six Brigades.

Brigada Organization (TOE 1940)
Brigada Staff Company
1 Mapping Platoon
1 Signals Company (2 LMG)
1 Radio Company (2 LMG)
1 Military Police Company (9 LMG)

1 Reconnaissance Battalion
1 Battalion Staff Company (2 LMG)
1 Signal Company (2 LMG)
2 Mounted Reconnaissance Companies (9 LMG)
1 Armoured Car Reconnaissance Company (9 C-4M35 light armoured cars)
1 Support Company (12 HMG 8 81mm mortars)

4 Infantería Regiments, each with 4 battalions each with
1 Battalion Staff Company (2 LMG)
3 Rifle Companies (12 LMG each)
1 Support Company (12 HMG and 8 81mm mortars)

Artillería Regiment
Artillería Regimental Staff and Staff Battery
1 Mapping Platoon
3 Artillería Battalions, each with
Artillería Battalion Staff and Staff Battery (2 LMG each)
3 Batteries (two batteries four 75mm and one battery four 155mm) [I and II Brigada have 105mm rather than 75mm]
1 Observation Company (2 LMG)

Antiaerea Artillería Battalion
Antiaerea Artillería Battalion Staff
1 Observation Company (2 LMG)
3 Batteries (four 37mm each)

Anti-Tank Battalion
1 Battalion Staff Company (2 LMG)
1 Observation Company (2 LMG)
3 Batteries (six 37mm each)

Pioneer Battalion
3 Pioneer Companies (9 LMG) (motorised)
1 Bridging Column (motorised)

Signals Battalion
1 Field Telephone Company (motorised) (2 LMG)
1 Radio Company (motorised) (2 LMG)
1 Signal Company (2 LMG)

Quartermaster Battalion
6 Supply Companies (motorised)
1 Repair Workshop
1 Field Bakery
1 Field Butcher Company
1 Field Post Office

Medical Battalion
2 Medical Companies (motorised)
2 Ambulance Companies
1 Field Hospital
1 Veterinary Company


Several of these small units have been formed for territorial security in remote regions allowing the new Brigades to focus on the populated areas of Argentina.

Independent Security Regiment (1940 TOE) Infantería Regiment Staff (2 LMG)
1 Signals Company (2 LMG)
1 Military Police Company (9 LMG)
3 battalions, each with;
1 Battalion Staff Company (2 LMG)
3 Rifle Companies (6 LMG 4 HMG each)
1 Support Company (8 HMG and 8 81mm mortars)
1 Anti-Tank Company (2 37mm 2 LMG)

1 Artillería Battalion, with;
Artillería Battalion Staff and Staff Battery (2 LMG each)
2 Batteries (four 75mm each)
1 Observation Company (2 LMG)

2 Supply Companies (horse)
1 Field Bakery
1 Field Butcher Company
1 Field Post Office
1 Medical Company (horse)
1 Veterinary Company


A new unit is forming, a Parachute Battalion, not yet combat ready and probably not going to be until 1941 anyway. Not even enough transport planes exist to drop them all so really its an elite unit for now.

Parachute Infantería Battalion (TOE 1940) Parachute Infantería Battalion Staff Company(2 LMG)
1 Signals Platoon (2 LMG)
1 Scout Platoon (3 LMG)
3 Parachute Infantería Companies (9 LMG each)
1 Light Support Company (12 LMG)
1 Heavy Support Company (8 81mm mortars)
1 Supply Company (2 LMG)
1 Field Kitchen Unit (2 LMG)
1 Medical Platoon (1 LMG)


The mountain Brigada also gets a refreshed OOB

Andes Mountain Brigada Organization (1940 TOE)
Brigada Staff Company
1 Mapping Platoon
1 Metrological Platoon
1 Signals Company
1 Radio Company
1 Military Police Platoon (3 LMG)

Mountain Reconnaissance Battalion
1 Battalion Staff Company (2 LMG)
1 Signal Company (2 LMG)
2 Mounted Reconnaissance Companies (9 LMG)
1 Rifle Reconnaissance Company (9 LMG)
1 Support Company (12 HMG 8 mortars)

4 Mountain Regiments, each with 4 battalions each with
1 Battalion Staff Company (2 LMG)
3 Rifle Companies (9 LMG 2 HMG each)
1 Support Company (12 HMG and 8 mortars)

Artillería Regiment
Artillería Regimental Staff and Staff Battery
1 Mapping Platoon
2 Artillería Battalions, each with
Artillería Battalion Staff and Staff Battery (2 LMG each)
3 Batteries (four 100mm each)
1 Observation Company
1 Artillería Supply Company (horse
1 Artillería Battalion with
Artillería Battalion Staff and Staff Battery (2 LMG each)
3 Batteries (four 80mm M-39 rocket-launchers each)
1 Observation Company
1 Artillería Supply Company (horse)

Antiaerea Artillería Company
Antiaerea Artillería Staff Platoon
2 Batteries (four 37mm each)

Pioneer Battalion
3 Pioneer Companies (9 LMG)
1 Bridging Column

Quartermaster Battalion
6 Supply Companies (horse)
1 Repair Workshop
1 Field Bakery
1 Field Butcher Company
1 Field Post Office

Medical Battalion
2 Medical Companies (horse)
1 Ambulance Company
1 Field Hospital
1 Veterinary Company


As the armoured power of Argentina grows so does the Armoured Brigades. Two Brugades replace the five former Regiments attached to each Corps (one Regiment remains as the 'odd' unit left over). Now they are much more European-style and are based on ideas raised after the SA War.

Armoured Brigada Organization (1940 TOE)
Brigada Staff Headquarters Company
1 Motorised Signal Company (2 LMG)
1 Motorised Radio Company (2 LMG)
1 Mapping Company
1 Military Police Company (9 LMG)
1 Armoured Staff Company (3 tanks)

Armoured Car Reconnaissance Battalion
Battalion Headquarters Company (3 C-4M35 AC)
4 Armoured Car Reconnaissance Companies (two 9 C-3M35 AC each, two 9 C-4M35 each)
1 Motorised Signal Company
1 Anti-Tank Company (2 37mm and 2 LMG)

4 Tank Battalions, each with
Battalion Headquarters Company (3 tanks)
4 Armoured Companies (12 tanks each) (1 light, 2 fast and 1 heavy tank company)
1 Motorised Signal Company

1 Support Battalion
1 Headquarters Company (3 tanks)
2 Support Companies (12 TG-2M38 SPGs each)

Antiaerea Artillería Battalion
Antiaerea Artillería Staff Platoon
1 Observation Platoon (2 LMG)
3 Batteries (four truck-mounted 20mm each)
3 Batteries (four 37mm each)

Anti-Tank Battalion
1 Battalion Staff Company (2 LMG)
1 Observation Company (2 LMG)
3 Batteries (six 37mm each)
2 Mobile Armoured Companies, each with;
Staff Platoon (two C-4M35)
1 Observation Platoon (two C-4M35)
12 TG-2M38 mobile armoured anti-tank guns

Pioneer Battalion
3 Pioneer Companies (motorised) (9 LMG)
2 Bridging Columns

Quartermaster Battalion
6 Motorised Supply Companies
2 Repair Workshops
1 Field Bakery
1 Field Butcher Company
1 Field Post Office

Medical Battalion
2 Motorised Medical Companies
1 Ambulance Company
1 Field Hospital