WesWorld

A look at the TankSharp of the idea of a sturmgeshutz based on the lengthened Panzer II chassis instead of the Panzer III or Panzer IV chassis. Note that the 75mm is the short 75mm L24 howitzer used on the early StuG IIIs and the early Panzer IVs, NOT the longer 75mm L43 or L48 weapons used on later vehicles.


Vehicle Name Sturmgeshutz II C
Vehicle Type Assault gun

Length 5.40 meters
Width 2.30 meters
Height 1.80 meters

Crew 4.00 men
Passengers 0.00 men

Weight Breakdown
Crew Weight 0.72 metric tons
Passenger Weight 0.00 metric tons
Miscellaneous Weight 0.10 metric tons
Armor Weight 6.91 metric tons
Armament Weight 0.49 metric tons
Ammunition Weight 0.40 metric tons
Engine Weight 0.66 metric tons
Fuel Weight 0.26 metric tons
APU Weight 0.00 metric tons
Energy Bank Weight 0.04 metric tons
Transmission Weight 0.44 metric tons
Amphibious Equipment Weight 0.00 metric tons
Suspension Weight 1.07 metric tons
Track Weight 1.05 metric tons
Road Wheel Weight 1.04 metric tons
Applique Armor Package A 0.00 metric tons
Applique Armor Package B 0.00 metric tons
Cargo Payload 0.00 metric tons

Mobility and Performance Breakdown

Engine 160.00 horsepower
Fuel Capacity 80.00 gallons
Maximum Hull Speed (water) 6.49 MPH

Baseline Upgraded (A) Upgraded (A+B)
Combat Weight 13.18 13.18 13.18 metric tons
Growth Capability (Transmission) 3.76 3.76 3.76 metric tons
Growth Capability (Suspension) 1.82 1.82 1.82 metric tons
Ground Pressure 11.76 11.76 11.76 PSI
Power/Weight Ratio 12.14 12.14 12.14 hp/metric ton
Top Speed 22.01 22.01 22.01 MPH
Operating Range 137.62 137.62 137.62 miles

Amphibious Performance Breakdown
Density of Vehicle 0.64 0.64 0.64 g/cm3
Vehicle Freeboard (Transiting) 0.06 0.06 0.06 meters
Vehicle Freeboard (Dropped In) -0.61 -0.61 -0.61 meters
Vehicle Draft (Transiting) 1.74 1.74 1.74 meters
Vehicle Draft (Dropped in) 2.41 2.41 2.41 meters
Water Speed #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0! MPH
Operating Range In Water #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0! miles

Armament Breakdown
Hull Turret
Rifle Calibre MGs 1.00 0.00
HMGs 0.00 0.00

Hull Turret Total
ATGMs 0.00 0.00 0.00 rounds stowed
Rifle Calibre 800.00 0.00 800.00 rounds stowed
HMG Calibre 0.00 0.00 0.00 rounds stowed

Calibre (mm) # in Hull # in Turret Rounds (hull) Rounds (Turret)
Cannon/Gun 1 75.00 1.00 0.00 45 0
Cannon/Gun 2 0.10 0.00 0.00 0 0

BASELINE PROTECTION LEVELS
KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Hull Armor 47 38 Resistant to 20x110mm Hispano Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Hull Armor 27 22 Resistant to 12.7 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Hull Armor 32 26 Resistant to 20x110mm Hispano Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Hull Armor 8 8 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Hull Floor Armor 12 12 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything

KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Turret Armor 0 0 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Turret Armor 0 0 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Turret Armor 0 0 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Turret Armor 0 0 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything

I am somewhat concerned regarding the overall height.

At 1.8m overall, with 0.02m of armor, you have 1.78m clear inside hull. I don't think PzIIs were torsion bar, so you don't need room for that.

The tanksharp guide gives 1.71m for a sitting crewman and 2.09m for standing, so you are committing your loader to only sitting, which may be akward. I doubt semi-reclining at 1.23m is an option for the loader.

Further, if the crew is all sitting, that leaves 7cm for ground clearance, which is likely insufficient.

So unless I miss something, I would advocate a taller vehicle.

The height may need some adjusting, granted.

However, neither the Hetzer nor the StuG III would be high enough for a standing loader by TS standards: the Hetzer was only 2.17m high, and the StuG III was only 2.16m high (counting ground clearance in both cases). With the lighter rounds used, loading from the seated position shouldn't be too difficult.

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
The tanksharp guide gives 1.71m for a sitting crewman and 2.09m for standing, so you are committing your loader to only sitting, which may be akward. I doubt semi-reclining at 1.23m is an option for the loader.

I'm not entirely sure that tanksharp is correct in that regard as I had a measure of historical WW2 vehicles and they're all considerably less than the stated height even with sitting upright drivers. The M4 is a fairly tall tank and yet the vertical hull height is around 1.5m

If you look here http://afvdb.50megs.com/germany/stug3.html , you'll see the evolution of the StuG III, which started out with a height of 1.95 m and a ground clearance of 38.5 cm, growing in height in later models up to the 2.16 m height of the StuG IIIG (some of that height's probably the late model cupola).

Here's a revised version, to bring the height up to the 1.95m height of the StuG III A (this will result in a slightly taller interior than the StuG had, since this vehicle has a little less ground clearance, 30 cm vs 38.5 cm).

Vehicle Name Sturmgeshutz II C
Vehicle Type Assault gun

Length 5.40 meters
Width 2.30 meters
Height 1.95 meters

Crew 4.00 men
Passengers 0.00 men

Weight Breakdown
Crew Weight 0.72 metric tons
Passenger Weight 0.00 metric tons
Miscellaneous Weight 0.10 metric tons
Armor Weight 7.71 metric tons
Armament Weight 0.49 metric tons
Ammunition Weight 0.40 metric tons
Engine Weight 0.66 metric tons
Fuel Weight 0.26 metric tons
APU Weight 0.00 metric tons
Energy Bank Weight 0.04 metric tons
Transmission Weight 0.44 metric tons
Amphibious Equipment Weight 0.00 metric tons
Suspension Weight 1.07 metric tons
Track Weight 1.07 metric tons
Road Wheel Weight 1.04 metric tons
Applique Armor Package A 0.00 metric tons
Applique Armor Package B 0.00 metric tons
Cargo Payload 0.00 metric tons

Mobility and Performance Breakdown

Engine 160.00 horsepower
Fuel Capacity 80.00 gallons
Maximum Hull Speed (water) 6.49 MPH

Baseline Upgraded (A) Upgraded (A+B)
Combat Weight 14.00 14.00 14.00 metric tons
Growth Capability (Transmission) 2.94 2.94 2.94 metric tons
Growth Capability (Suspension) 1.00 1.00 1.00 metric tons
Ground Pressure 12.61 12.61 12.61 PSI
Power/Weight Ratio 11.42 11.42 11.42 hp/metric ton
Top Speed 20.71 20.71 20.71 MPH
Operating Range 129.47 129.47 129.47 miles

Amphibious Performance Breakdown
Density of Vehicle 0.55 0.55 0.55 g/cm3
Vehicle Freeboard (Transiting) 0.10 0.10 0.10 meters
Vehicle Freeboard (Dropped In) -0.61 -0.61 -0.61 meters
Vehicle Draft (Transiting) 1.85 1.85 1.85 meters
Vehicle Draft (Dropped in) 2.56 2.56 2.56 meters
Water Speed #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0! MPH
Operating Range In Water #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0! miles

Armament Breakdown
Hull Turret
Rifle Calibre MGs 1.00 0.00
HMGs 0.00 0.00

Hull Turret Total
ATGMs 0.00 0.00 0.00 rounds stowed
Rifle Calibre 800.00 0.00 800.00 rounds stowed
HMG Calibre 0.00 0.00 0.00 rounds stowed

Calibre (mm) # in Hull # in Turret Rounds (hull) Rounds (Turret)
Cannon/Gun 1 75.00 1.00 0.00 45 0
Cannon/Gun 2 0.10 0.00 0.00 0 0

BASELINE PROTECTION LEVELS
KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Hull Armor 45 37 Resistant to 20x110mm Hispano Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Hull Armor 27 22 Resistant to 12.7 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Hull Armor 30 24 Resistant to 20x110mm Hispano Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Hull Armor 8 8 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Hull Floor Armor 12 12 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything

KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Turret Armor 0 0 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Turret Armor 0 0 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Turret Armor 0 0 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Turret Armor 0 0 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything

Found an interesting vehicle this morning that would, potentially, work well with the above StuG II: the Sturminfanteriegeschütz 33B. This was a historical vehicle, built on the StuG III hull with a different superstructure, that carried the 15cm infantry gun instead of the 75mm howitzer or gun or the 105mm howitzer of the much more common StuG III variants. This vehicle could be considered a cousin of the more well-known Brummbar, which was built on the Panzer IV chassis and used a modified version of the 15cm infantry gun. The 15cm infantry guns certainly need to be mechanized somehow, they're heavy and they're big, making it tough to use them effectively, but the Panzer II hull is probably really too small to do so effectively (even though there was an attempt to do so historically, it doesn't end up being a good sturmgeschutz, it had only very thin armor and an open top, making the crew very vulnerable). But on the WW Panzer III/IV hull......

Found it in my german armour referance, looks like a lengthened Panzer II chassis with a similar upper hull to say an M-39. I assume your aiming for something more like the Sturmhaubitz 42?

That's the one I was commenting on isn't REALLY a good sturmgeshutz, more of a self-propelled artillery piece. The one I'm looking at can be found here: http://www.jagdtiger.de/GermanVeh/SIG33B-01.htm and http://fingolfen.tripod.com/panzer3/stuig33b.html these have pictures of the vehicle I'm talking about.

If you want to use the Pzkw I & II chassis how about the SIG-33´s predecessor the sIG 33(Sf)

http://www.panzer-reich.co.uk/images/tan…nzer1-sig-1.jpg

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad
If you want to use the Pzkw I & II chassis how about the SIG-33´s predecessor the sIG 33(Sf)

http://www.panzer-reich.co.uk/images/tan…nzer1-sig-1.jpg

Enemy soldiers: "HOLY CARP, that cathedral's bell-tower has a gun, and it's attacking us!!"

WW Germany never had the Panzer I, so (thank heavens) we won't be fielding any of those.....

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
That's the one I was commenting on isn't REALLY a good sturmgeshutz, more of a self-propelled artillery piece. The one I'm looking at can be found here: http://www.jagdtiger.de/GermanVeh/SIG33B-01.htm and http://fingolfen.tripod.com/panzer3/stuig33b.html these have pictures of the vehicle I'm talking about.

IC, found that one too.

And here's a TankSharp of it. The "turret" doesn't turn, it's just an extension of the hull to give the loader room to work the gun that isn't carried all the way to the rear of the vehicle to keep the weight down. This version has the armor of the Sturmgeshutz C, the current version for the Heer. It's a bit heavier than the historical vehicle, but the WW hull is a bit longer and it's also taller than the Panzer III hull, so that makes reasonable sense. If I used the Panzer III hull and increased the size of the "turret", I could probably get the weight down a bit more, if I wanted to.


Vehicle Name Sturmgeschutz 33B
Vehicle Type Assault gun (heavy)

Length 6.00 meters
Width 2.90 meters
Height 2.35 meters

Crew 5.00 men
Passengers 0.00 men

Weight Breakdown
Crew Weight 0.90 metric tons
Passenger Weight 0.00 metric tons
Miscellaneous Weight 0.11 metric tons
Armor Weight 10.10 metric tons
Armament Weight 1.03 metric tons
Ammunition Weight 0.98 metric tons
Engine Weight 1.24 metric tons
Fuel Weight 0.38 metric tons
APU Weight 0.00 metric tons
Energy Bank Weight 0.06 metric tons
Transmission Weight 0.78 metric tons
Amphibious Equipment Weight 0.00 metric tons
Suspension Weight 1.79 metric tons
Track Weight 1.88 metric tons
Road Wheel Weight 1.54 metric tons
Structural Weight 3.41 Metric tons
Applique Armor Package A 0.00 metric tons
Applique Armor Package B 0.00 metric tons
Cargo Payload 0.00 metric tons

Mobility and Performance Breakdown

Engine 300.00 horsepower
Fuel Capacity 120.00 gallons
Maximum Hull Speed (water) 6.84 MPH

Baseline Upgraded (A) Upgraded (A+B)
Combat Weight 20.79 20.79 20.79 metric tons
Growth Capability (Transmission) 9.24 9.24 9.24 metric tons
Growth Capability (Suspension) 4.21 4.21 4.21 metric tons
Ground Pressure 12.32 12.32 12.32 PSI
Power/Weight Ratio 14.43 14.43 14.43 hp/metric ton
Top Speed 26.15 26.15 26.15 MPH
Operating Range 130.80 130.80 130.80 miles

Amphibious Performance Breakdown
Density of Vehicle 0.58 0.58 0.58 g/cm3
Vehicle Freeboard (Transiting) -0.03 -0.03 -0.03 meters
Vehicle Freeboard (Dropped In) -0.78 -0.78 -0.78 meters
Vehicle Draft (Transiting) 1.98 1.98 1.98 meters
Vehicle Draft (Dropped in) 2.73 2.73 2.73 meters
Water Speed #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0! MPH
Operating Range In Water #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0! miles

Armament Breakdown
Hull Turret
Rifle Calibre MGs 1.00 0.00
HMGs 0.00 0.00

Hull Turret Total
ATGMs 0.00 0.00 0.00 rounds stowed
Rifle Calibre 1,500.00 0.00 1,500.00 rounds stowed
HMG Calibre 0.00 0.00 0.00 rounds stowed

Calibre (mm) # in Hull # in Turret Rounds (hull) Rounds (Turret)
Cannon/Gun 1 150.00 1.00 0.00 30 0
Cannon/Gun 2 0.10 0.00 0.00 0 0

BASELINE PROTECTION LEVELS
KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Hull Armor 40.45 32.88 Resistant to 20x110mm Hispano Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Hull Armor 21.96 21.96 Resistant to 7.62 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Hull Armor 20.00 20.00 Resistant to 7.62 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Hull Armor 8.00 8.00 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Hull Floor Armor 10.00 10.00 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything

KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Turret Armor 42.61 34.64 Resistant to 20x110mm Hispano Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Turret Armor 28.41 23.09 Resistant to 12.7 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Turret Armor 24.60 20.00 Resistant to 12.7 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Turret Armor 8.00 8.00 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything

Here's what the same vehicle looks like in TankSharp, built on the WW Panzer III chassis. This version is a little heavier than the previous version, probably because the Panzer III has slightly heavier turret armor (which was carried down over the bow of the vehicle on this vehicle) than the StuG has bow armor. In an up-armored version, this one might well be lighter, though, since it has shorter sides.

Vehicle Name Sturmgeshutz 33B
Vehicle Type Assault Gun

Length 6.00 meters
Width 3.15 meters
Height 2.35 meters

Crew 5.00 men
Passengers 0.00 men

Weight Breakdown
Crew Weight 0.90 metric tons
Passenger Weight 0.00 metric tons
Miscellaneous Weight 0.11 metric tons
Armor Weight 10.79 metric tons
Armament Weight 1.03 metric tons
Ammunition Weight 0.97 metric tons
Engine Weight 1.24 metric tons
Fuel Weight 0.51 metric tons
APU Weight 0.00 metric tons
Energy Bank Weight 0.06 metric tons
Transmission Weight 0.65 metric tons
Amphibious Equipment Weight 0.00 metric tons
Suspension Weight 2.14 metric tons
Track Weight 1.88 metric tons
Road Wheel Weight 1.54 metric tons
Applique Armor Package A 0.00 metric tons
Applique Armor Package B 0.00 metric tons
Cargo Payload 0.00 metric tons

Mobility and Performance Breakdown

Engine 300.00 horsepower
Fuel Capacity 160.00 gallons
Maximum Hull Speed (water) 6.84 MPH

Baseline Upgraded (A) Upgraded (A+B)
Combat Weight 21.83 21.47 21.47 metric tons
Growth Capability (Transmission) 3.55 3.55 3.55 metric tons
Growth Capability (Suspension) 3.53 3.53 3.53 metric tons
Ground Pressure 12.93 12.93 12.93 PSI
Power/Weight Ratio 13.97 13.97 13.97 hp/metric ton
Top Speed 25.32 25.32 25.32 MPH
Operating Range 168.88 168.88 168.88 miles

Amphibious Performance Breakdown
Density of Vehicle 0.70 0.70 0.70 g/cm3
Vehicle Freeboard (Transiting) -0.26 -0.26 -0.26 meters
Vehicle Freeboard (Dropped In) -0.97 -0.97 -0.97 meters
Vehicle Draft (Transiting) 1.86 1.86 1.86 meters
Vehicle Draft (Dropped in) 2.57 2.57 2.57 meters
Water Speed #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0! MPH
Operating Range In Water #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0! miles

Armament Breakdown
Hull Turret
Rifle Calibre MGs 0.00 1.00
HMGs 0.00 0.00

Hull Turret Total
ATGMs 0.00 0.00 0.00 rounds stowed
Rifle Calibre 0.00 1,200.00 1,200.00 rounds stowed
HMG Calibre 0.00 0.00 0.00 rounds stowed

Calibre (mm) # in Hull # in Turret Rounds (hull) Rounds (Turret)
Cannon/Gun 1 150.00 0.00 1.00 0 30
Cannon/Gun 2 0.00 0.00 0.00 0 0

BASELINE PROTECTION LEVELS
KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Hull Armor 67 54 Resistant to 40mm L70 M56 AP Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Hull Armor 27 22 Resistant to 12.7 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Hull Armor 25 20 Resistant to 12.7 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Hull Armor 8 8 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Hull Floor Armor 10 10 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything

KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Turret Armor 71 58 Resistant to 40mm L70 M56 AP Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Turret Armor 28 23 Resistant to 12.7 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Turret Armor 28 23 Resistant to 12.7 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Turret Armor 8 8 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything

So when will these monsters be introduced?

Monsters? Heck, they don't even weigh 25 tons.....


Haven't decided, really. Probably not until 1938 or later, though.