WesWorld

Hi,

For those interested in building coastal fortifications. In the lake 1930's the 'Johor Battery' at Changi on Singapore was built with two 15" guns in single turrets with underground magazine and store rooms for the cost of £400,000. This is the same price that Argentina paid for a G&H class Destroyer at this time so 700tons seem reasonable for a single 15" gun in coast defence?

Cheers,

That probably works, and it's in a reasonable range of the twin 15" turrets used afloat (the British 15" twin weighed between 770 and 880 tons, depending on model according to navweaps).

Where did you get that info Roger?

Interesting information, but I do not think it is applicable.
The majority of the fortification- excavation, construction, concrete, etc is not part of the 'cost'.

Only the gun and any turret/rotating structure would be part of the 'cost', which would be simple tonnage.

The Argentinean DD was in a 1950's Janes FS. It had the prices for all the ships purchased off GB and Italy in the 1930's. The battery was from a £500,000 gift by the Sultan of Johor of which £400,000 was used on the two guns. This was a website that I can't find at the moment.

Cheers,

Armament:
1 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns in single mounts, 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1950 Model
Breech loading gun in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,688 lbs / 765 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 15.0" / 381 mm

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 211 tons, 0.0 %
Armour: 198 tons, 0.0 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 198 tons, 0.0 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: -596 tons, 0.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 188 tons, 0.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Total: 597 tons

Quoted

Interesting information, but I do not think it is applicable.
The majority of the fortification- excavation, construction, concrete, etc is not part of the 'cost'.

Only the gun and any turret/rotating structure would be part of the 'cost', which would be simple tonnage.

A real world equivalent of a 1,400ton DD vs installing 2 15" guns in coastal defence, concrete included (probably coolie workers). I wonder what the 2 Dover guns cost.

Cheers,

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
Armament:
1 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns in single mounts, 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1950 Model
Breech loading gun in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,688 lbs / 765 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 15.0" / 381 mm

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 211 tons, 0.0 %
Armour: 198 tons, 0.0 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 198 tons, 0.0 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: -596 tons, 0.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 188 tons, 0.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Total: 597 tons

Thanks Brock, you just designed my next project!

Quoted

Originally posted by alt_naval

A real world equivalent of a 1,400ton DD vs installing 2 15" guns in coastal defence, concrete included (probably coolie workers). I wonder what the 2 Dover guns cost.

Cheers,

In Wesworld, the SIM cost of the Maginot line would be 0 tons.
Our sim reports don't deal with the concrete or labor except as directly related to the naval part. The fortifications are window dressing.

Quoted

In Wesworld, the SIM cost of the Maginot line would be 0 tons.
Our sim reports don't deal with the concrete or labor except as directly related to the naval part. The fortifications are window dressing.

Fine.

I'd put it up for comment.

I'll stop now.

Bye.

?

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk

Quoted

Originally posted by alt_naval

A real world equivalent of a 1,400ton DD vs installing 2 15" guns in coastal defence, concrete included (probably coolie workers). I wonder what the 2 Dover guns cost.

Cheers,

In Wesworld, the SIM cost of the Maginot line would be 0 tons.
Our sim reports don't deal with the concrete or labor except as directly related to the naval part. The fortifications are window dressing.

The Maginot line still had the various turrets, those would require a certain amount of materials would then not? at any rate a coastal battery with a 15" gun is alot different than the maginot line with its various 75mm, 47mm AT and MG turrets and casemates.

Quoted

Originally posted by alt_naval

Quoted

In Wesworld, the SIM cost of the Maginot line would be 0 tons.
Our sim reports don't deal with the concrete or labor except as directly related to the naval part. The fortifications are window dressing.

Fine.

I'd put it up for comment.

I'll stop now.

Bye.

Alt Naval, if I came across as harsh or accusatory or something, that wasn't my intent. I am sorry if I offended.

Don't mind me, I've been childish, just having a bad day. I didn't propose it as a rule change just an equivalent of ships vs coastal fortifications for those who may be interested. Once the Maginot line was dragging I figured it had got out of hand; you were talking battleships, I was talking boats in the bath.

Cheers,

PS. reading 'Building the Kaisers Navy' at the moment. Lots of interesting stuff but perhaps I'd better include it under the book section.

Reading those figures you can't wondering whether in hindsight the RN could have better spent the money on four extra DDs for the China Station or Eastern Fleet than a battery of guns at Singapore!

Strikes me as cheap for the destroyers, did the Argies get a discount?

The G&H class DD were about as cheap as you could get in the 1930's. Evolved from the 1918 V&W (which was £200,000 in 191. I think GB built DD were very workman like, not the sophisticated machinery of the KM or USN so they will be cheap by comparison.

What was missing at Singapore was HE ammo for the 15" guns. and aircraft. By 1941, forces could be scraped together, just not ballanced forces.

By the late 30's DD for the China Station were Tribals or something similar 1,850t not 1,300t to face IJN DD (£500,000 to £600,000 per ship).

Still, I've ssen costings for the Singapore base strategy at equal to 7 Nelsons over 20 years to figures far less than that so I'm not sure of a reliable comparison.

Cheers,

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk

Quoted

Originally posted by alt_naval

Quoted

In Wesworld, the SIM cost of the Maginot line would be 0 tons.
Our sim reports don't deal with the concrete or labor except as directly related to the naval part. The fortifications are window dressing.

Fine.

I'd put it up for comment.

I'll stop now.

Bye.

Alt Naval, if I came across as harsh or accusatory or something, that wasn't my intent. I am sorry if I offended.

And Civility returns to the Wesworld!