Request for Tender

howard

Unregistered

Monday, October 20th 2008, 2:06pm

Request for Tender Helicopter or Auto-gyro

The Fuerzo Aeronautica de Peru requests a vertical takeoff and landing aircraft [helicopter]

Recent operations trying to reach Cocvhinbambas Earthquake victims indicates the Peruvian need for an aircraft that can fly into remote locations where road and river transport has become impossible and where the terrain makes flying in aid in and casualties out by conventional aircraft means impossible.

Desired characteristics

1. Cargo lifting ability of at least 300 kilograms. 1000 kilograms would be ideal.

2. Ability to carry one or two litter patients.

3. Ability to operate at an altitude of at least 3000 meters. 5000 meters is the hoped for goal.

4. One or two pilot seating is acceptable two pilots preferred.

5. IAS of 50-75 knots is acceptable. 100 knots is ideal

6. Aloft endurance of at least 80 minutes.

Suggested configuration is either coaxial or synchropter configuration.

Cargo auto-gyros will be considered provided they meet or exceed the cargo requirement of 500 kilograms.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "howard" (Oct 20th 2008, 2:09pm)

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Hrolf Hakonson

Scooby-Doo

Posts: 6,178

2

Monday, October 20th 2008, 4:05pm

Hmmmm, not a lot of helicopters that are available, even using the 3 year rule, that will meet this. The only historical production helicopter that has a prayer of accomplishing this in the near term is the Focke Agelis Fa-223, but that didn't fly until 1940 and was a split-rotor helicopter like the Fw-61. Production began at the end of 1942 (so in WW, 1939 or so, moved up a few months since Focke wouldn't be forced to create a new company after being forced out of Focke-Wulf by the Nazis). The Flettner Fl-339 would work, but won't be available until 1942 or so (no bombing problems, but less of a push since there's no war to push it forward).

I do know that here in WW Igor Sikorsky's still in Russia, so the US doesn't have his services to use, which will slow US efforts on helicopters. Platt-Lepage is in business, and currently won't have any problems getting the German government's consent for a license for the Fw-61, but they didn't get a prototype in the air until 1941 (probably 1936 in WW, without having to redo the work that Focke-Wulf had already done), but it'll be probably 1940 or 1941 before something like this could be ready, and it would be similar to the Fa-223 in design.

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ShinRa_Inc

Mad Scientist at Work

Posts: 4,307

3

Monday, October 20th 2008, 6:53pm

Canada has Henry Berliner and some other people working on AutoGyros/Helicopters, but nothing as advanced as you're trying to achieve.

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Hood

Ugly Aircraft, Inc

Posts: 8,155

4

Monday, October 20th 2008, 8:19pm

Great Britain has no helicopter designs and no desires to aqcuire any despite some licence-built Cierva autogyros.

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howard

Unregistered

5

Monday, October 20th 2008, 9:51pm

The RfT is a standing Peruvian invitation to inventors and designers to try to attain the objectives stated.

300,000 PEN {the currency is nuevo sols (roughly $100,000) to be known as the Diaz Prize for the first true helicopter to achieve the design goals.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "howard" (Oct 20th 2008, 10:11pm)

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Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

6

Monday, October 20th 2008, 10:03pm

I don't think I really want to see helicopters in the game yet. Can we perhaps leave this off until the mid 1940s?

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howard

Unregistered

7

Monday, October 20th 2008, 10:17pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
I don't think I really want to see helicopters in the game yet. Can we perhaps leave this off until the mid 1940s?

R-4 in RTL combat search and rescue use 1944, CBI. I submit that the Cochinbambas Earthquake as described would provoke Peru to seek this solution, as its operational experience, is that hundreds and hundreds of lives could have been saved, if some kind of helicopters had been available.

H.

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Desertfox

Ambitious Packrat

Posts: 4,058

8

Monday, October 20th 2008, 11:36pm

All of you have forgotten that there IS a current aircraft capable of fullfilling these requirements. Said aircraft has been around far longer that airplanes and helicopters.

Without further adue, The Zeppelin:

And its younger brother, The Blimp:

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Hrolf Hakonson

Scooby-Doo

Posts: 6,178

9

Monday, October 20th 2008, 11:42pm

Neither of which is particularly well suited to operating in the confined spaces of mountain passes..... particularly if a wind comes up.

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Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

10

Tuesday, October 21st 2008, 12:47am

Quoted

Originally posted by howard

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
I don't think I really want to see helicopters in the game yet. Can we perhaps leave this off until the mid 1940s?

R-4 in RTL combat search and rescue use 1944, CBI. I submit that the Cochinbambas Earthquake as described would provoke Peru to seek this solution, as its operational experience, is that hundreds and hundreds of lives could have been saved, if some kind of helicopters had been available.

H.

Oh, and since the United States could do it in 1944, you think the Peruvians have the right to do it in 1937 or so? Suddenly there's this earthquake and Peruvians everywhere throw up their hands and say "ZOMG WE NEEDZ HELICOPTARZ NAOW!!!1!1!!" The immediacy of requesting helicopters upon introducing the "trapped in the canyon" storyline tells me the storyline was only intended to cite as a reason to develop new helicopters.

If Russia or the US or Italy or Britain made this proposal, then I wouldn't terribly care, because they have more flux in their budgets to support such a project. Peru beating the Great Powers to a helicopter? Puh-lease.

((Sorry if I sound bitter and sarcastic at the moment, but I'm trying to invest a great deal of time into working my countries into new technologies over several years, and even taking wrong turns, and suddenly using Storyline Fiat to create a foresighted technology... that annoys me a great deal.))

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Red Admiral

Italian Stallion

Posts: 7,019

11

Tuesday, October 21st 2008, 12:57am

Peru offers $100,000 for a helicopter. Thats the same as Italy's RL budget spent on radar development over 5 years. Maybe Peru is the world's largest untapped source of gold?

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howard

Unregistered

12

Tuesday, October 21st 2008, 1:20am

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by howard

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
I don't think I really want to see helicopters in the game yet. Can we perhaps leave this off until the mid 1940s?

R-4 in RTL combat search and rescue use 1944, CBI. I submit that the Cochinbambas Earthquake as described would provoke Peru to seek this solution, as its operational experience, is that hundreds and hundreds of lives could have been saved, if some kind of helicopters had been available.

H.

Oh, and since the United States could do it in 1944, you think the Peruvians have the right to do it in 1937 or so? Suddenly there's this earthquake and Peruvians everywhere throw up their hands and say "ZOMG WE NEEDZ HELICOPTARZ NAOW!!!1!1!!" The immediacy of requesting helicopters upon introducing the "trapped in the canyon" storyline tells me the storyline was only intended to cite as a reason to develop new helicopters.

There is more than one nation working in Bolivia. They ALL very much face the same topological problems.

Quoted

If Russia or the US or Italy or Britain made this proposal, then I wouldn't terribly care, because they have more flux in their budgets to support such a project. Peru beating the Great Powers to a helicopter? Puh-lease.

Peru is asking the great powers to develop a helicopter it can buy.(Diaz Prize) Nowhere is there a suggestion that it can build one. El Konk hasn't even gotten an aerro engine to work reliably yet.

Quoted

((Sorry if I sound bitter and sarcastic at the moment, but I'm trying to invest a great deal of time into working my countries into new technologies over several years, and even taking wrong turns, and suddenly using Storyline Fiat to create a foresighted technology... that annoys me a great deal.))

Sorry if I bring this item to your attention, but have you ever heard of the Pitcairn AC-35?

http://daddybobphotos.com/Aircraft/Manuf…/AUT-AC35-H.htm

There was in RTL America and should be in WW an aggressive civilian NACA program into vertical takeoff and landing machines in the United States. La Plage, Hiller, Kaman, Piasecki, et al, didn't appear out of nowhere. Pitcairn was already building some formidable gyroplanes in 1935. As soon as Focke Wulfe started flying their synchro-mesh helo around, US aviation jumped on that helo bandwagon hard. Minus Sikorsky, I still expect that their US machines will be showing up around 1939-1940.

Germany, Iberia, and Italy already experiment with some STOVL and VTOL contraptions NOW, so the question of technology is moot anyway. The machines are HERE in primitive and small forms.

All Peru is trying to do is get some better ones from somebody-eventually.

H.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "howard" (Oct 21st 2008, 1:54am)

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howard

Unregistered

13

Tuesday, October 21st 2008, 1:27am

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
Peru offers $100,000 for a helicopter. Thats the same as Italy's RL budget spent on radar development over 5 years. Maybe Peru is the world's largest untapped source of gold?

A working experimental helicopter to spec, will cost around $25,000.00-50,000.00 US 1939 dollars for the first unit produced. A destroyer of the day is $5,000,000.00 all up.

Italy spent millions on the RTL Cavour conversions. It had the money for radar, if it wanted it.

Chickenfeed that money is, even for a small poor country like Peru.

H.

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Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

14

Tuesday, October 21st 2008, 1:54am

And in spite of all that effort, one AC-35 was made, with a second being produced in the 1960s, it says. Can you tell me why there was only one made? If only one was built, it clearly didn't make a brilliant return of investment except in the research field.

I stated my reasons for not wanting a huge number of helicopters in the game at this time. In 1939, I will accept the first flight of a Sikorsky R-4 helicopter under the three-year rule, for deployment in 1941, again under the three-year rule. If there are any other designs out there, I'll also not complain about the three-year rule being applied; and ahistorical countries like Nordmark, the SAE, and Atlantis have at least kept close enough to the mark that I really wouldn't raise a fuss.

And don't talk down to me and 'slam stuff in my face'. If you want to lay out a case, you can do so without sounding stuck up about it. I made a tirade in annoyance and irritability, for which I apologize; I've been in something of a stiff-necked mood today and should have waited to edit before I posted. I'm going to ghost off for a few hours to settle down before making any further comments.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Brockpaine" (Oct 21st 2008, 1:55am)

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howard

Unregistered

15

Tuesday, October 21st 2008, 2:03am

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
And in spite of all that effort, one AC-35 was made, with a second being produced in the 1960s, it says. Can you tell me why there was only one made? If only one was built, it clearly didn't make a brilliant return of investment except in the research field.

I stated my reasons for not wanting a huge number of helicopters in the game at this time. In 1939, I will accept the first flight of a Sikorsky R-4 helicopter under the three-year rule, for deployment in 1941, again under the three-year rule. If there are any other designs out there, I'll also not complain about the three-year rule being applied; and ahistorical countries like Nordmark, the SAE, and Atlantis have at least kept close enough to the mark that I really wouldn't raise a fuss.

And don't talk down to me and 'slam stuff in my face'. If you want to lay out a case, you can do so without sounding stuck up about it. I made a tirade in annoyance and irritability, for which I apologize; I've been in something of a stiff-necked mood today and should have waited to edit before I posted. I'm going to ghost off for a few hours to settle down before making any further comments.

It was the depression, Brock. The follow was the Pitcairn PA-36 started in 1938 or thereabouts to a US military requirement for a scout gyroplane..

Apologies about the attitude I replied with, but I wasn't too happy with your bitter comments either, so I profoundly apologize in return. The case for VTOL aircraft starting in to deploy in Europe and North America in 1940 is fairly solid and substantial with the US Germany, and Russia investigating with great fervor. If, anything, the war actually delayed the advent of the helo, with the US being the only nation that could assign even marginal resources to develop what all the inventors involved wanted to try.

H.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "howard" (Oct 21st 2008, 3:36am)

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thesmilingassassin

The Chosen One

Posts: 13,513

16

Tuesday, October 21st 2008, 5:53am

I have no problems with people developing helicopters, I do however have a problem with instant developement of helicopters....

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howard

Unregistered

17

Tuesday, October 21st 2008, 1:01pm

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
I have no problems with people developing helicopters, I do however have a problem with instant developement of helicopters....

Hence the Diaz Prize. I don't expect helos right away. I expect that there will be some inventors now encouraged to pursue developments somewhat more aggressively so that what would be 1942 rare might show up in 1939.

Kellett for example.

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howard

Unregistered

18

Saturday, October 25th 2008, 6:26pm

Peruvian government has issued a RfT for a twin engined torpedo bomber to be used to "support anti-piracy patrols upon our coastal areas of interest."

Performance requirements.

General characteristics

* Crew: 2-4

Performance

* Maximum speed: 475 km/h (295 m) at 5,300 m (17,388 ft)
* Range: 2,300 km (max internal fuel) (1,429 mi)
* Service ceiling 8,500 m (26,900 ft)

Armament

* Guns:
o 4--8 machine guns, either , with 2-4 each firing forward, and 2-4 guns firing from the rear of the main fuselage in a tail mount.
* Bombs: Max load 2,005kg (4,420 lb)
o Ten 50kg (110 lb) bombs internally + four 250kg (551 lb) bombs externally.
o Two 500kg (1,105 lb) externally.
o Four 500kg (1,105lb) bombs externally.
o One or two torpedoes externally.

Edited to conform to future storyline.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "howard" (Oct 25th 2008, 8:19pm)