WesWorld

A proposed Bulgarian ship for 1937. A destroyer-leader to lead the Drazki-class DDs, or operate as torpedo cruisers. I also have a version with 12 torpedo tubes (3x4), but dropping the 'C' turret.

Quoted

Kyustendil-class, Bulgarian Heavy Destroyer laid down 1937

Displacement:
2,460 t light; 2,629 t standard; 2,895 t normal; 3,107 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
460.72 ft / 442.91 ft x 41.01 ft x 13.94 ft (normal load)
140.43 m / 135.00 m x 12.50 m x 4.25 m

Armament:
8 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1937 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 20.79lbs / 9.43kg shells, 1937 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 767 lbs / 348 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
10 - 25.6" / 650 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.57" / 40 mm 2.76" / 70 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Conning tower: 3.15" / 80 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 48,264 shp / 36,005 Kw = 34.50 kts
Range 4,800nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 478 tons

Complement:
196 - 256

Cost:
£1.841 million / $7.365 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 96 tons, 3.3 %
Armour: 94 tons, 3.2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 80 tons, 2.8 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 14 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,221 tons, 42.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 989 tons, 34.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 435 tons, 15.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 2.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
906 lbs / 411 Kg = 10.8 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 13.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.88
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.15

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.80 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.19 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (40 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 17.36 ft / 5.29 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 165.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 79.5 %
Waterplane Area: 11,604 Square feet or 1,078 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 80 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 45 lbs/sq ft or 221 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.51
- Longitudinal: 1.56
- Overall: 0.57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Whats not to like, fast and well armed and Bulgaria like Persia doesnt need long range

I have a thought that perhaps the 140mm main gun is a tad too much, particularly for DP... but I had some extra hull strength and decided to burn it there.

The Romanian Navy notes with some consternation that the Bulgarians have decided to also put guns that shoot up on their ships. This compels a hasty redesign of the last 4 units planned for the destroyer program into ships with guns that also shoot up.

Nice design btw. Gunwise right between my vr30 and 31. A fight between these guys and the v30/31 could be interesting ( you have a 1.5 knot speed advantage, but vr30 has 2 more guns 5mm smaller, and vr 31 has 3 less guns 10mm bigger).

Now I think I am going to build a Romanian Conrad

Quoted

Originally posted by TheCanadian
The Romanian Navy notes with some consternation that the Bulgarians have decided to also put guns that shoot up on their ships. This compels a hasty redesign of the last 4 units planned for the destroyer program into ships with guns that also shoot up.

Nice design btw. Gunwise right between my vr30 and 31. A fight between these guys and the v30/31 could be interesting ( you have a 1.5 knot speed advantage, but vr30 has 2 more guns 5mm smaller, and vr 31 has 3 less guns 10mm bigger).

Now I think I am going to build a Romanian Conrad

You keep looking at Kyustendil's guns, when you really ought to be noticing Kyustendil's torpedoes!

I had given a bit of thought to building a pair of Conrad-class TCLs - they're very tidy little ships for a coastal navy - but heavier than something I wanted to build right now. I actually have a design based on this same hull, about 2,995 tons standard, with 8x6" and 36 knots... No armor, though.

Oh don't worry, I noticed. btw, we have access to 600mm torps which while not as big as yours are still impressive.

I like Conrad actually, and I can build three 3 TCLs and 2 Cetetea Albas and still be under the treaty limits. And my new Cetetea Albas match up fairly nicely to your Danubes.

Quite true, they are very nicely balanced ships. I said to Wes when we were still discussing the Constantinople Treaty that I expected you to answer by building more light cruisers, and guessed you'd build to come up to the Turkish/Bulgarian standard... I was right. Thanks, I feel prophetic now.

(Your winning lotto numbers are... hang on a second...)

Project 237 is basically a heavily-modified Turkish Seljuk-class DDL., Yes, the L:B ratio is legal under our rules. No, I don't plan on building it... I think the Kyustendil is pushing the envelope for what's effective for me.

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Project 237, Destroyer which will not be laid down in 1937

Displacement:
2,848 t light; 2,990 t standard; 3,291 t normal; 3,532 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
501.15 ft / 483.34 ft x 44.29 ft x 13.94 ft (normal load)
152.75 m / 147.32 m x 13.50 m x 4.25 m

Armament:
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1937 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 890 lbs / 404 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
10 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.57" / 40 mm 2.76" / 70 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Conning tower: 3.15" / 80 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 58,542 shp / 43,672 Kw = 35.90 kts
Range 5,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 541 tons

Complement:
216 - 282

Cost:
£2.186 million / $8.746 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 111 tons, 3.4 %
Armour: 99 tons, 3.0 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 84 tons, 2.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 15 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,484 tons, 45.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,114 tons, 33.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 443 tons, 13.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
989 lbs / 448 Kg = 9.6 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
Metacentric height 2.3 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 12.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.386
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.91 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (40 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 17.36 ft / 5.29 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 172.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.1 %
Waterplane Area: 13,576 Square feet or 1,261 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 77 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 47 lbs/sq ft or 230 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.17
- Overall: 0.55
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

That is a CL, NOT a DD!!!

Heh, it depends on who you talk too!

I myself would class it as a CL to mediterranean standards and the Sleljuks are seen as scout cruisers.

And under the naval treaty, Bulgaria is legally entitled to build these. Heck, they can build a 25,000 ton "Destroyer" if they wish to, although it would be rather pointless.

So far as Im concerned, these would be considered as destroyers (being under 3,000 tons and having no armour belt, or deck) however, only certain nations could really afford the luxury of having them. For the rest of us, they are merely needless expense.

Refined the ship a tad bit to match my drawing; the drawing is based off the lines of the Soviet destroyer-leader Tashkent...


[SIZE=1]Drawing modified by me from several sets of Wes's drawings.[/SIZE]

Quoted

Kyustendil , Bulgarian Destroyer Leader laid down 1937

Displacement:
2,437 t light; 2,593 t standard; 2,895 t normal; 3,136 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
460.72 ft / 442.91 ft x 41.01 ft x 13.94 ft (normal load)
140.43 m / 135.00 m x 12.50 m x 4.25 m

Armament:
8 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1937 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 690 lbs / 313 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
12 - 25.6" / 650 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.57" / 40 mm 2.76" / 70 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Conning tower: 3.15" / 80 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 48,264 shp / 36,005 Kw = 34.50 kts
Range 5,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 544 tons

Complement:
196 - 256

Cost:
£1.802 million / $7.208 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 86 tons, 3.0 %
Armour: 88 tons, 3.1 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 75 tons, 2.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 14 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,233 tons, 42.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 969 tons, 33.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 458 tons, 15.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 2.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
911 lbs / 413 Kg = 10.9 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 13.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 68 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.82
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.15

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.80 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.19 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (40 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 17.36 ft / 5.29 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 164.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 59.0 %
Waterplane Area: 11,604 Square feet or 1,078 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 82 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 44 lbs/sq ft or 217 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.51
- Longitudinal: 1.53
- Overall: 0.57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

Overall impressive. Not sure if I like the 140mms, but eh.
I wonder if the 3" armor on the twin 140mm gun houses will have a detrimental effect on their rotation/training for use in the DP role.

Perhaps. I could shed a bit down to 2", say? I want the guns to be moderately well-protected against 4"-5" shellfire: would 2" armor do that?

This design was once more massive than it is now, and so armor was stronger. As the design shrank I just never fiddled with the gun armor.

140mm's are going to be at the edge of usefulness for DP mounts, unless you're paying the tonnage for extra loading machinery and over-sized training and elevating gear.

I have some extra weight reserved for that already, and I have hull strength if I need to add more. How much weight do you think I'd need to tag for that purpose? Ten tons? Twenty? I could trim the gun armor down and add that weight, too.

See what the Canadians have used for their twin 5.5" mounts, that'll be a place to start. The other issue here is going to be time: the Canadians have been working on their DP 5.5" mount for years trying to get it right.

I also think that those gun mounts are overly armored. That weight will make training a real pain if manually handled - which is quite normal for that kind of mount (hence the lower weight etc... I´d not go beyond 35mm for the face plates and 25mm for sides.

The Canadian Argyll-class CLAAs have twin 140mm DP guns and have 124 tons of miscellaneous weight for the entire ship. Even presuming there's no other weight reserved for other things, that'd be about 25 tons per turret.

Also, the Canadian CLAAs have more armor than I have on here.

I suppose I could purchase some Canadian DP guns, or I could revert to the 130mm DP of the Drazki class. The only issue with that is that I wanted a heavier armament to go with the larger contradestroyer design.

Instead of adding misc. weight, its easier to check the option for automatic guns (you'll get a date warning but just ignore it) which adds 25% onto the weight ~ which seems to be a reasonable assumption looking at the historical values.