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1

Saturday, September 27th 2008, 1:41pm

Possible future German CL

Ersatz Karlsruhe, Germany Light Cruiser laid down 1938

Displacement:
9,326 t light; 9,780 t standard; 10,748 t normal; 11,522 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
642.99 ft / 623.36 ft x 63.98 ft x 18.86 ft (normal load)
195.98 m / 190.00 m x 19.50 m x 5.75 m

Armament:
10 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (5x2 guns), 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1938 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1928 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1929 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1936 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
32 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1936 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,461 lbs / 663 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 270
16 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.13" / 105 mm 405.18 ft / 123.50 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 2.76" / 70 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
5th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 4.72" / 120 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 75,744 shp / 56,505 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,741 tons

Complement:
527 - 686

Cost:
£4.357 million / $17.428 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 186 tons, 1.7 %
Armour: 2,360 tons, 22.0 %
- Belts: 802 tons, 7.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 502 tons, 4.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,006 tons, 9.4 %
- Conning Tower: 50 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,074 tons, 19.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,446 tons, 41.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,421 tons, 13.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 260 tons, 2.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,961 lbs / 8,147 Kg = 174.4 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 15.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.28

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.74 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.17 ft / 9.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Stern: 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Average freeboard: 22.11 ft / 6.74 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.5 %
Waterplane Area: 27,632 Square feet or 2,567 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 130 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 104 lbs/sq ft or 506 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

30 tons per 15 cm turret reserved for higher-powered motors, high-angle loading equipment, and fusing equipment

30 tons reserved for radar

25 tons reserved for aircraft

40 tons reserved for reload torpedoes

15 tons reserved for future growth

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "Hrolf Hakonson" (Sep 27th 2008, 6:37pm)


2

Saturday, September 27th 2008, 1:57pm

A Myoko/Takao-like gun arrangement? Interesting, but I'd go for 15 guns in that case.

3

Saturday, September 27th 2008, 2:05pm

The CL designs Germany has done for Argentina (the General Belgrano's) have a layout like the Mogamis, rather than like the Takaos, and the Ersatz Karlsruhe's would follow a similar pattern. The reason for going to twin mountings vs the triples used on the older design is that the twin 15cm mounting is intended to be a dual-purpose mount, with a fair amount of automation in the loading, fuzing, and firing sequence.

4

Saturday, September 27th 2008, 3:31pm

This design is comparable to my Colony Class for the RN. It is some 400 tons lighter but mounts 12 6in guns but otherwise is very similar in terms of armour and speed but has bout 0.5m les beam and is almost 20m shorter.
It seems your twin turrets are wasteful of space but probably reflected by the modern DP system. It shows the problem all navies face balancing modern equipment versus cost and size.

5

Wednesday, October 15th 2008, 3:28am

Here's a revised version, using RA's suggestion for how to handle automated-loading guns.

Ersatz Karlsruhe, Germany Light Cruiser laid down 1938

Displacement:
9,326 t light; 9,780 t standard; 10,748 t normal; 11,522 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
644.64 ft / 623.36 ft x 63.98 ft x 18.86 ft (normal load)
196.48 m / 190.00 m x 19.50 m x 5.75 m

Armament:
10 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (5x2 guns), 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1938 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1928 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1929 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1936 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
32 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1936 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,461 lbs / 663 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 270
16 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 405.18 ft / 123.50 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 2.76" / 70 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
5th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 2.17" / 55 mm, Conning tower: 4.72" / 120 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 75,744 shp / 56,505 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,741 tons

Complement:
527 - 686

Cost:
£4.479 million / $17.916 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 212 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 2,563 tons, 23.9 %
- Belts: 917 tons, 8.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 490 tons, 4.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,107 tons, 10.3 %
- Conning Tower: 50 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,074 tons, 19.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,367 tons, 40.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,421 tons, 13.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 110 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,517 lbs / 7,946 Kg = 170.1 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 15.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.74 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.17 ft / 9.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
- Stern: 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
- Average freeboard: 21.36 ft / 6.51 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.2 %
Waterplane Area: 27,632 Square feet or 2,567 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 126 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 104 lbs/sq ft or 507 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.28
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

30 tons reserved for radar

25 tons reserved for aircraft

40 tons reserved for reload torpedoes

15 tons reserved for future growth

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Hrolf Hakonson" (Oct 15th 2008, 12:07pm)


6

Wednesday, October 15th 2008, 10:51am

I wouldn't say use it for fully automatic weapons, its just nice for weapons that are more mechanised. The fully automatic weapons seem to weigh around 40-50% more than their conventional brothers in this period.

7

Wednesday, October 15th 2008, 11:31am

The 15cm DP isn't intended to be fully automatic, it's intended to be more mechanized than the historical guns used in the 1930s but less than the historical 15cm/6" DP weapons of the 1940s and 50s. I should probably update the text to remove the "automatic rapid fire" text and convert it to dual purpose.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Hrolf Hakonson" (Oct 15th 2008, 11:32am)


8

Saturday, October 25th 2008, 12:57pm

The alternative design, using normal mechanized/manually loaded 15cm guns:

Ersatz Karlsruhe, Germany Light Cruiser laid down 1938

Displacement:
9,790 t light; 10,224 t standard; 11,215 t normal; 12,007 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
644.64 ft / 623.36 ft x 63.98 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
196.48 m / 190.00 m x 19.50 m x 6.00 m

Armament:
15 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (5x3 guns), 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1938 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1928 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1929 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1936 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
32 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1936 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,963 lbs / 890 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 180
16 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 405.18 ft / 123.50 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 2.76" / 70 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
5th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 77,647 shp / 57,925 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,783 tons

Complement:
544 - 708

Cost:
£4.795 million / $19.178 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 250 tons, 2.2 %
Armour: 2,593 tons, 23.1 %
- Belts: 917 tons, 8.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 606 tons, 5.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,006 tons, 9.0 %
- Conning Tower: 64 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 2,126 tons, 19.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,701 tons, 41.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,424 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,123 lbs / 8,220 Kg = 176.0 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 15.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.74 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.17 ft / 9.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m (20.51 ft / 6.25 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
- Stern: 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
- Average freeboard: 21.70 ft / 6.62 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.4 %
Waterplane Area: 27,632 Square feet or 2,567 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 125 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 110 lbs/sq ft or 536 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.39
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

30 tons reserved for radar

25 tons reserved for aircraft

40 tons reserved for reload torpedoes

55 tons reserved for future growth

9

Sunday, October 26th 2008, 11:01am

And here's a CLAA, if the KM decides it needs one. The 128mms are automated loading weapons.

DKM Mannheim, German Light Cruiser (AA) laid down 1937

Displacement:
5,565 t light; 5,896 t standard; 6,611 t normal; 7,183 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
546.15 ft / 524.93 ft x 53.31 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
166.47 m / 160.00 m x 16.25 m x 6.00 m

Armament:
10 - 5.04" / 128 mm guns (5x2 guns), 64.00lbs / 29.03kg shells, 1937 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (10x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
24 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (6x4 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1937 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 683 lbs / 310 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 500
12 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.13" / 105 mm 362.20 ft / 110.40 m 8.76 ft / 2.67 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 4.72" / 120 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 64,172 shp / 47,873 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,287 tons

Complement:
366 - 476

Cost:
£2.885 million / $11.540 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 101 tons, 1.5 %
Armour: 1,158 tons, 17.5 %
- Belts: 539 tons, 8.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 55 tons, 0.8 %
- Armour Deck: 528 tons, 8.0 %
- Conning Tower: 36 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,779 tons, 26.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,377 tons, 36.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,046 tons, 15.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 2.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,237 lbs / 3,283 Kg = 113.1 x 5.0 " / 128 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 2.6 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 13.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.29
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.420
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.85 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 4.92 ft / 1.50 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.22 ft / 8.60 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Quarterdeck (13 %): 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Stern: 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Average freeboard: 19.08 ft / 5.82 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108.4 %
Waterplane Area: 18,113 Square feet or 1,683 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 77 lbs/sq ft or 377 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.84
- Longitudinal: 1.70
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

30 tons for reload torpedoes

50 tons for radar

70 tons reserved for growth