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Kaiser Kirk

Lightbringer and former European Imperialist

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1

Monday, September 1st 2008, 8:01pm

Rocket Launcher Model 1937 BAM RPG-1

Rocket Launcher Model 1937 BAM RPG-1

I am curious as to the in-service historic precedent for this RPG existing in the 1930s.

The RPG-1 is certainly larger in diameter and longer ranged than the 1942 M1A1 bazooka, although I note the weight, range/eff range stats are those of the 1945 M9A1- which was only 60mm.

PIATs were 1943, Faustpatrones were 1943, Panzerfausts and Panzerschrecks later, and actual Soviet RPGs even later.

None of them can be reasonably expected to seriously damage a tank as claimed unless a shaped charge, which is not available yet, is used.

2

Saturday, September 6th 2008, 11:28pm

I don't see why this weapon is being developed at this time.
Grenade luncher is better anti personel weapon while AT rifle is better choice for destroying tank.

Both AT rifle and grenade launcher permit the infantry men to carry more ammo and dont have the nasty side effect of signaling your enemy your position after firing.

AT rifle has about the same weight as today GPMG with is a lot.(I carried a PK on a 10 mile long hike,Mechanized Infantry my a** we walk every were)but the combatant can carry about 30 15mm rounds instead of 3 RPG's. As long as wesworld powers don't start building Panzer IV,Centurions, T-34 and Shermans I dont see the reason for fielding RPG or Panzerfaust's.

howard

Unregistered

3

Sunday, September 7th 2008, 2:06am

Quoted

Originally posted by Marek Gutkowski
I don't see why this weapon is being developed at this time.
Grenade luncher is better anti personel weapon while AT rifle is better choice for destroying tank.

Both AT rifle and grenade launcher permit the infantry men to carry more ammo and dont have the nasty side effect of signaling your enemy your position after firing.

AT rifle has about the same weight as today GPMG with is a lot.(I carried a PK on a 10 mile long hike,Mechanized Infantry my a** we walk every were)but the combatant can carry about 30 15mm rounds instead of 3 RPG's. As long as wesworld powers don't start building Panzer IV,Centurions, T-34 and Shermans I dont see the reason for fielding RPG or Panzerfaust's.


Recall that Robert Goddard circa 1918 started experimenting with this when he first started working on an RPG for Pershing's Army as a trench and machine gun nest clearing weapon.

Rocket propelled grenades make sense in jungle warfare when mortars don't work in the direct fire role. AT-rifle is longer clumsier, heavier, more awkward than a PK and ineffective as an anti-infantry weapon in WW 1937. For an artillery poor army where even infantry guns are in severely short supply, an RPG as an anti-infantry weapon is a must.

Reveal your position? And you think the equivalent infantry cannon doesn't? Look at the size of the infantry cannon grenade and its signature.

Thanks for your comments and concerns which I note, but I already correctly analyzed and explained my reasons and gave historic justification. Its in the RTA tech tree for very good WW Thaii military reasons-not European RTL reasons.

H.

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "howard" (Sep 7th 2008, 2:08am)


4

Sunday, September 7th 2008, 2:54am

I was thinking that a grenade launcher like the M79 is a better choice allowing the solider too carry more ammunition. Rifle grenade is also a possible, and more in line with what was used at the time.With out the shape charge warhead as in Kaiser Kirk post there isnt much advantage over what is already in service in the late 30's.

Basically I'm saying that If I was in WW Thai R&D devision I be an opponent of this idea.Why have a novel weapon brought in too service when of the shelf idea can already fill is role.

howard

Unregistered

5

Sunday, September 7th 2008, 3:23am

Quoted

Originally posted by Marek Gutkowski
I was thinking that a grenade launcher like the M79 is a better choice allowing the solider too carry more ammunition. Rifle grenade is also a possible, and more in line with what was used at the time.With out the shape charge warhead as in Kaiser Kirk post there isnt much advantage over what is already in service in the late 30's.

Basically I'm saying that If I was in WW Thai R&D devision I be an opponent of this idea.Why have a novel weapon brought in too service when of the shelf idea can already fill is role.


Spigot launcher is incredibly dangerous tech. The Japanese used it but only with giant mortars and their base braced grenade thrower as a short ranged lobbing weapon. British tried it with PIAT as a direct fire weapon. How did that work out for them? Answer is, that it didn't.

The rocket is simple, safe, well understood. Rifle grenade is a limited area effect weapon no better than a hand thrown grenade and is useless against machine gun nests at that date since you can't reliably aim it to get through overhead cover. It is also incredibly dangerous to use-requiring careful and continuous soldier training, which is why it fell out of favor, as soon as the safer and simpler RPGs came on line.

So-spigot mortar-type grenade launcher in man portable form as a direct fire weapon is far too advanced for Thailand. Rifle grenade lacks sufficient flat trajectory and blast frag effects in close terrain fighting.

You also keep insisting that this is a HEAT rocket. It isn't. That is currently beyond WW Thai tech and has to be acquired. That is at least a few years in the future.

One more thing-

http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/profile.php?userid=252&sid=

Notice interests?

H.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "howard" (Sep 7th 2008, 3:26am)


6

Sunday, September 7th 2008, 4:11am

Rockets simple, safe, well understood? In 1938-9????? Most military rockets of the day (what very few there were) were ARTILLERY weapons, where accuracy wasn't expected and the deviations were accepted because enough rounds were fired that the area was still affected even though no rounds ended up where they "should" have. The other major military rockets were air-to-ground weapons, and were lucky to hit a target the size of a tank 10% of the time. The last type of military rockets were the desperate replacement for AA cannon, which were so effective they were replaced as soon as more cannon became available.

Historically, infantry rocket weapons were fielded AFTER HEAT rounds became available, not before. HEAT rounds and heavier tank armor gave a reason for these weapons to be developed, not the long-already-existing pillboxes and bunkers. Rocket weapons of the day were too inaccurate to hit the weak points of a pillbox or bunker (early trials of the Panzerschreck had 3 rounds out of 12 hitting a stationary tank target at 100 m), and an HE round, as proposed, wouldn't penetrate (not enough mass or velocity),

howard

Unregistered

7

Sunday, September 7th 2008, 4:25am

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
Rockets simple, safe, well understood? In 1938-9????? Most military rockets of the day (what very few there were) were ARTILLERY weapons, where accuracy wasn't expected and the deviations were accepted because enough rounds were fired that the area was still affected even though no rounds ended up where they "should" have. The other major military rockets were air-to-ground weapons, and were lucky to hit a target the size of a tank 10% of the time. The last type of military rockets were the desperate replacement for AA cannon, which were so effective they were replaced as soon as more cannon became available.


Congreve, Hale, and Trengrouse, 100 years of SAFE, well understood and reasonably accurate rockets.

Quoted


Historically, infantry rocket weapons were fielded AFTER HEAT rounds became available, not before. HEAT rounds and heavier tank armor gave a reason for these weapons to be developed, not the long-already-existing pillboxes and bunkers. Rocket weapons of the day were too inaccurate to hit the weak points of a pillbox or bunker (early trials of the Panzerschreck had 3 rounds out of 12 hitting a stationary tank target at 100 m), and an HE round, as proposed, wouldn't penetrate (not enough mass or velocity),


I refer you again to this:

http://mix.msfc.nasa.gov/abstracts.php?p=855

I know this technology and what it could and can do.

H.

8

Sunday, September 7th 2008, 5:02am

Quoted

Originally posted by howard
I know this technology and what it could and can do.


you know this, in 2008. Does anyone in Siam know this, 70 years earlier?

Goddard and Pershing are in the US (And didn't participate in the Great war in WW, to boot), while Congreve, Hale, and Trengrouse are British.

What rationale is there for Siam making these advances when the people and technology are not availible to you?

howard

Unregistered

9

Sunday, September 7th 2008, 5:29am

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc

Quoted

Originally posted by howard
I know this technology and what it could and can do.


you know this, in 2008. Does anyone in Siam know this, 70 years earlier?

Goddard and Pershing are in the US (And didn't participate in the Great war in WW, to boot), while Congreve, Hale, and Trengrouse are British.

What rationale is there for Siam making these advances when the people and technology are not availible to you?


Check storyline for that data. I invented Avrit Singham specifically for that purpose. Also Trengrouse rockets were in general merchant marine use-common international tech. The BAM RPG-1 has been fired successfully in action and is established. TLN.

H.

10

Sunday, September 7th 2008, 10:43am

... just curious. When will the Siamese start aiming that thing into the sky to take on planes flying over their position?

11

Sunday, September 7th 2008, 12:44pm

Trengrouse rockets were simple, yes, plain old black-powder rockets intended to hit the shore from a ship. Not any particular 1m square area of the shore, the shore. A pretty large target, don't you think?

Congreve rockets were, like their later counterparts, artillery weapons: not intended to hit point targets.

12

Sunday, September 7th 2008, 4:21pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10
... just curious. When will the Siamese start aiming that thing into the sky to take on planes flying over their position?

Next week when it becomes the Wasserfall missiles? :P

howard

Unregistered

13

Sunday, September 7th 2008, 5:42pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10
... just curious. When will the Siamese start aiming that thing into the sky to take on planes flying over their position?


Never. Surely you understand that with a burntime of one second and a burnout velocity at around 100-120 m/s that at apogee, it can't climb more than 400-500 meters on the lob?

You'd have to volley a BAM RPAAG-5 which isn't even on the drawing boards, yet.

I haven't even story-simmed Avrit Singham as finished benchtesting of the barrage rockets, yet. Those rockets are still in the development stage.

:P

H.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "howard" (Sep 7th 2008, 5:43pm)


howard

Unregistered

14

Sunday, September 7th 2008, 6:14pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
Trengrouse rockets were simple, yes, plain old black-powder rockets intended to hit the shore from a ship. Not any particular 1m square area of the shore, the shore. A pretty large target, don't you think?

Congreve rockets were, like their later counterparts, artillery weapons: not intended to hit point targets.


Henry Trengrouse is famous to rocketeers for two reasoins:

1. The Trengrouse rocket far from being simple was a first example of a compound rocket, one with a booster charge and then a sustainer. It was a step rocket-strong enough and accurate enough to drag rope hundreds of meters across a line of bearing as a direct fire flat trajectory line throwing device. it was accurate, safe, and fairly advanced even though the propellant charge was black powder.

2, And he was a another rocketeer in the long line of such inventors who was ignored by his own government until they stole his work and reverse engineered it. The Crown paid him a measly 50 Pounds or thereabouts for the line rocket idea which is still used today.

Congreve's barrage rocket was a stick stabilized rocket. I would be more interested in the Hale as the start point. That was a familiar rocket to 19th century artillerymen. Its design is the actual origin point for Katushyas.

Hale rocket:

http://www.olypen.com/tinkers/74th%20Pen…age/Rockets.htm

SIMPLE. I know how to build these contraptions from 1804 on in real life at each appropriate stage of development. So I know I can have Avrit Singhram do it in the WW Thailand sim. I even know what kind of fuels and materials he might use in 1937 Thailand.

H.

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "howard" (Sep 7th 2008, 6:41pm)


15

Sunday, September 7th 2008, 8:47pm

China used rockets from before year 1AD.

No one is saying that its not doable only that its a novel idea with will have opponents.

If this weapon is a pillbox killer as You say.Then a flamethrower is much more effective.With still have numerous drawbacks.

You are using hindsight some thing that all of us use(used).Its a good idea but that alone is not enough.

If you go ahead with this no one will stop You.We just voicing our doughs.

16

Sunday, September 7th 2008, 11:14pm

It might not make a great weapon but a rocket launcher is extremely easy to make.

Quoted

This weapon is possibly the most impressive and most dangerous to use on this page. Although basic in design it utilizes simply found materials to make a devastating weapon.

The launcher itself is simply an aluminium pipe, partially blocked at one end. A switch is built into the handle along with a 9 volt battery so that when the switch is pushed, the circuit is completed and the igniter ignites.
The blockage at the back end is vital, as the bought rocket engines are designed for vertical flight the initial thrust is not powerful enough to quickly gain the velocity needed for horizontal flight, and will simply plough into the ground after a few metres. However with the back end partially blocked the gas from the rocket engine will pressurise the tube as the rocket is launched in the same fashion as a bullet fired from a rifle giving the rocket a far flatter trajectory.
diagram of rocket launcher

The rocket is powered by a bought estes D class engine, these can be found in most hobby shops however are rather expensive at around $7-8 Australian per shot, trying to improvise a homemade rocket engine only increases the already high risk of an accident.
The rocket is detonated from the ejection charge in the rocket at a set distance, this is the safest and most reliable way.
The rockets body is made from thin aluminium tubing (again available at hobby shops), The rocket engines ejection charge is drilled into (clay on top of engine) until you hit the black stuff (blackpowder). The engine is than glued with araldite or equivalent into the Al pipe, the pipe is filled with the explosive charge eg. blackpowder and nose cone fitted.
To stabalize the rocket you can do two things that I know of , they are add fins or add spin to the rocket. The method below to some extent does both.
The fins are cut from a flexable plastic ( I used the cover off a ring binder) and glued with a strong epoxy to the sides of the rocket. when the rocket is pushed into the launcher the fins are folded around the body of the rocket.






From this website:
http://zwolle.snempaa.nl/oud/MakeshiftArsenal/

17

Sunday, September 7th 2008, 11:20pm

Quoted

http://zwolle.snempaa.[SIZE=4]nl[/SIZE]/oud/MakeshiftArsenal/

It surprises me that that is a Dutch site and not a Filipino site. :D

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Rooijen10" (Sep 7th 2008, 11:20pm)


18

Sunday, September 7th 2008, 11:30pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10

Quoted

http://zwolle.snempaa.[SIZE=4]nl[/SIZE]/oud/MakeshiftArsenal/

It surprises me that that is a Dutch site and not a Filipino site. :D


Filipinos undercover! :D

19

Sunday, September 7th 2008, 11:35pm

Quoted

Originally posted by howard
So I know I can have Avrit Singhram do it in the WW Thailand sim.


Well, I've already nabbed most of Avro Canada's historical design staff, so I guess I can start up some Avro Arrows in a year or two...

20

Monday, September 8th 2008, 12:39am

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc

Quoted

Originally posted by howard
So I know I can have Avrit Singhram do it in the WW Thailand sim.


Well, I've already nabbed most of Avro Canada's historical design staff, so I guess I can start up some Avro Arrows in a year or two...


That's exactly the flaw with this line of thought.