Persian Rifle ideas

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Saturday, August 23rd 2008, 11:40pm

Well you know that the Persians were not totally happy with the ZH-29 so...

Options?

Simplify it and cooling rib redesign to remove the risks for burns lets call this ZH-29M

Some redesign to increase safety and change the caliber to the Czech 8mm Rapid lets call this ZH-37

Ditch the ZH-29 and order the ZK-412 (a bit aerly but so are all the othe SLRs as well)

Ideas and Comments?

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Vukovlad" (Aug 24th 2008, 12:17am)

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Vukovlad

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Sunday, August 24th 2008, 12:19am

Ok I need to learn spelling but I have to excuse my terrible spelling with English being my third language

For those not familiar with the 8mm Rapid its a mid war intermediate round (8x35mm) around which Brno designed a number of weapons

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Vukovlad" (Aug 24th 2008, 12:20am)

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Brockpaine

The Shadow

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Sunday, August 24th 2008, 1:10am

I'm unfamiliar with the ZK-412, and the only information I found was in... Czech, I think. Still, picture...

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Vukovlad

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Sunday, August 24th 2008, 1:13am

ZK-412 Data

Caliber: 8x35 (8 mm Rapid)
Length: 980 mm
Barrel: 418 mm
Grooves: 4, right turn
Twist: 400 mm
Magasine: Box, detachable
Capacity: 30 rds
Weight with empty mag: 4,8 kg

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Brockpaine

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Sunday, August 24th 2008, 1:28am

What year did it come out IOTL?

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Vukovlad

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Sunday, August 24th 2008, 1:32am

Never entered service, designed for the SS as the MK-SS-42
so 1942-43

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howard

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Sunday, August 24th 2008, 3:29am

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad
ZK-412 Data

Caliber: 8x35 (8 mm Rapid)
Length: 980 mm
Barrel: 418 mm
Grooves: 4, right turn
Twist: 400 mm
Magasine: Box, detachable
Capacity: 30 rds
Weight with empty mag: 4,8 kg

This data looks bizarre. Only four lands and grooves? One turn in 15.73 inches? 16.45 inch barrel? That isn't a rifle, that is a carbine more akin to the PPSHK.

H.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "howard" (Aug 24th 2008, 3:30am)

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Vukovlad

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Sunday, August 24th 2008, 3:38am

Four groves bizarre? Like every Mauser from the M71 to M98? And yes it is a Carbine hence MK -SS-42

Never heard of the PPSHK, is it a variation of the PPSh-41?

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Vukovlad" (Aug 24th 2008, 3:41am)

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howard

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Sunday, August 24th 2008, 3:51am

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad
Four groves bizarre? Like every Mauser from the M71 to M98? And yes it is a Carbine hence MK -SS-42

I question that since the rifling for a carbine, the more lands and grooves, the less slippage as you torque the bullet down the short barrel-less wobble as the bullet leaves the muzzle. I would think a standard six would make more sense.

You also called it a rifle, not a carbine. I punched the numbers through and they came back as submachine gun or carbine.

H.

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Vukovlad

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Sunday, August 24th 2008, 3:56am

Calling it a rifle or not, it has the same barrel length as the StG-44... so thats a question of taste

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Brockpaine

The Shadow

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Sunday, August 24th 2008, 3:59am

I'll check my Mauser in a few minutes to count the riflings.

----------------------

I think you could perhaps get away with the ZK-412 if you had an established firearms-producing country invent it first. Perhaps use the German 7x40mm round instead of 8x35?

IMHO, there are no *technical* obstacles to producing a semiauto/select-fire rifle... just issues of tactics and doctrine combined with higher manufacturing and supply costs.

After all, a Scot came up with a breech-loading rifle back in 1775, but manufacturing costs meant the British army never showed an interest in it. Had they chased the idea during the period from 1775 to 1815, they could, quite possibly, have ended the Napoleonic Wars carrying a primitive Martini-Henry, say. But the rifle cost three times the price of a Brown Bess, and so they never switched...

Similarly, the argument people always had against semiautos is the bureaucratic "Well, now we have to buy ten times as much ammo."

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Vukovlad

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Sunday, August 24th 2008, 4:08am

Yeah i know that Persia cant build anything which is why everything is imported. As noted in the News work will be carried out by Zbrojovka Brno using their ammo (as Persia has so far).

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Brockpaine

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Sunday, August 24th 2008, 4:32am

Yes, that's what I'm having Bulgaria do as well, albeit with Switzerland. Though Bulgaria has some licensing arrangements for making ammo and a smaller number of rifles and subguns. Historically they didn't have much of a firearms industry until post-WWII.

My Mauser does have four grooves, yes. The only gun of mine I checked which has six was my 1911. Didn't check the Garand because it's hard to access at the moment.

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Red Admiral

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Sunday, August 24th 2008, 11:03am

I was looking at something similar for the late 30s after figuring there were too many problems in producing an auto rifle in 7.35x51. The power isn't really the issue as its a fair bit less than other rifle cartridges but the case is rather bit. Something smaller and a bit less powerful around the historical 7.35x34 would be easier to make work. Doctrinal issues are a bit easier for Italy as the army is fairly small. A liberal sprinkling of automatic weapons and mortars keeps the firepower high.

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Vukovlad

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Monday, August 25th 2008, 9:49pm

So, suggestions?

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Vukovlad

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Friday, August 29th 2008, 9:59pm

Got this on the TankNet about the 8mm Rapid, posted for those interested

Ammunition

8mm Rapid was designed in 08/1941. Among the conditions was that aimed fire should be possible up to 600 meters and that it should have comparable accuracy with 7.92mm Mauser. Also it was demanded that the round has high muzzle velocity (ca. 300 mps more than 9mm SMG).
The bullet was 21.5mm long and weighed 8g. Case was made from steel, 35mm long and lacquered.
During comparative trials between 8mm Rapid, 7.92mm Mauser and 9mm Parabellum, following results were achieved:
at 400 meters, average derivation (term?) of rounds was 15cm for Rapid, 7cm for Mauser and 80cm for 9mm. At 800 meters it was 104cm, 50cm and 546cm.
The bullet was able to penetrate steel helmet at 600 meters with 30° slope (400m demanded). At 50m 50cm of spruce wood was pentrated.

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Hrolf Hakonson

Scooby-Doo

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Sunday, August 31st 2008, 2:32pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad
Got this on the TankNet about the 8mm Rapid, posted for those interested

Ammunition

8mm Rapid was designed in 08/1941. Among the conditions was that aimed fire should be possible up to 600 meters and that it should have comparable accuracy with 7.92mm Mauser. Also it was demanded that the round has high muzzle velocity (ca. 300 mps more than 9mm SMG).
The bullet was 21.5mm long and weighed 8g. Case was made from steel, 35mm long and lacquered.
During comparative trials between 8mm Rapid, 7.92mm Mauser and 9mm Parabellum, following results were achieved:
at 400 meters, average derivation (term?) of rounds was 15cm for Rapid, 7cm for Mauser and 80cm for 9mm. At 800 meters it was 104cm, 50cm and 546cm.
The bullet was able to penetrate steel helmet at 600 meters with 30° slope (400m demanded). At 50m 50cm of spruce wood was pentrated.

The term's probably average deviation, ie, how far away from point of aim the projectile is.