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21

Monday, September 1st 2008, 12:06am

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad
That is kind of strange why would the SS want a round incompatible with the rounds the Wehrmacht tested

I expect the SS wanted its own equipment in order to force the Wehrmacht to follow their standard, rather than being forced by the Wehrmacht to follow the Wehrmacht's standard.

22

Monday, September 1st 2008, 12:09am

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad
That is kind of strange why would the SS want a round incompatible with the rounds the Wehrmacht tested

I expect the SS wanted its own equipment in order to force the Wehrmacht to follow their standard, rather than being forced by the Wehrmacht to follow the Wehrmacht's standard.


Yeah I guess it could be the usual turf war

23

Monday, September 1st 2008, 12:41am

As to the original topic, which has never really been addressed...

I think your proposed ZH-29M idea is going to be the path of least resistance for Persia, and thus most likely to be followed in the short term. I'm guessing that a redesign of the cooling ribs and a simplification will permit a deal of parts interchangeability with the ZH-29s Persia already has. Meanwhile, Persia can stall and wait for a second-generation SLR to appear.

24

Monday, September 1st 2008, 12:52am

Stall and wait?

25

Monday, September 1st 2008, 6:50pm

With regards to accuracy you've got to take into account the likely combat situation as well. I remember some British trials on a moving target at a few hundred metres where the Sten came out top ahead of the Bren and Enfield. Mostly from being able to quickly shoot a lot of bullets in that direction.

ZH-29M with some changes to make production in Persia easier is probably the best choice.

26

Monday, September 1st 2008, 7:31pm

The biggest fault with the ZH-29 as far as I can tell from reading about it was that it was to expensive, so a ZH-29M simplified (and cheaper) for general service and ZH-29 for NCO´s?

Kaiser Kirk

Lightbringer and former European Imperialist

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27

Monday, September 1st 2008, 8:12pm

I think that there are now Persia and Siam buying will help see economies of scale. That the Dutch have been putting some money into the ZH-29 for 2-3 years should also help offset development costs (and teach them to make license agreements more exclusive).

Dutch goals after their rifle competition were a different means of dealing with heat, and slightly looser tolerances, possibly with some chroming, which should both decrease susceptibility to dirt and machining costs.

28

Monday, September 1st 2008, 8:30pm

Perhaps, the chrome plating of rifling was that done during this period? With Siam buying ZH-29 and Persia and the Netherlands requesting simplification and some other improvements I wonder if Brno wouldnt just design a new "standard" ZH-29 with allowances for some national quirks like they did with the vz.24 or Mauser did.

If that is reasonable we would have to agree on the standard and then add national preferences to details.

So what is your opinion?

29

Monday, September 1st 2008, 8:49pm

I can only remember chrome electroplating of large calibre guns, it is fairly expensive. Really, any self-loading rifle will be more expensive than a standard bolt-action piece.

howard

Unregistered

30

Monday, September 1st 2008, 9:23pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
I can only remember chrome electroplating of large calibre guns, it is fairly expensive. Really, any self-loading rifle will be more expensive than a standard bolt-action piece.


I agree with this. The US eventually chromed the most corrosion exposed function parts of its service SLRs, during WW II as it found that salt water and rifles don't like each other, but it was a rich nation. I'd expect less or no chroming and more bluing and lots of emphasis on proper lube and cleaning for poor nations like Persia or Siam with the ZH-29.

I'm wondering what the cost of the rifle would be? About $200.00 1939 for a 1939 Garand, $600.00 for a Thompsom, I'd expect the ZH-29 to be as expensive as a comparable SLR-maybe a little more as scale economies aren't quite there yet.

As for standardization? I've already expressed a preference for more metal furniture since wood doesn't do that well in jungle. Shorten the rifle and reconfigure the cooling fins, just a tad as the rifle is a bit long for a Thai soldiier.

I'll play with it and see what I can do.

H

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "howard" (Sep 1st 2008, 11:38pm)


Kaiser Kirk

Lightbringer and former European Imperialist

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31

Monday, September 1st 2008, 11:16pm

Go for it, figuring out the details of such a thing was down the line for me.

As for chroming interior parts, had the thought some russian rifles did that historically, just poked about and can't find that info- I am likely misremembering.

The thought had been that is useful for limiting fouling and corrosion. For the Dutch, the access to the South Afrikan chromium sources and extensive tropical commitments make the expense less unreasonable vs. need. I may look for the precedent again later.

32

Monday, September 1st 2008, 11:31pm

I know the AK-47 used it dont know about earlier weapons.

The Persian Chromite mines should keep down costs

33

Monday, September 1st 2008, 11:33pm

Not all AK-47s, though.

Chinese and Russian SKS's used it, but not Yugoslav SKSs.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Brockpaine" (Sep 1st 2008, 11:34pm)


34

Monday, September 1st 2008, 11:47pm

Did the AVS-36 or SVT-40 use it?

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Vukovlad" (Sep 1st 2008, 11:47pm)


35

Monday, September 1st 2008, 11:54pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad
Did the AVS-36 or SVT-40 use it?

Not that I know of, but I'll have to research that. AVS-36, probably not.

howard

Unregistered

36

Monday, September 1st 2008, 11:56pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
Go for it, figuring out the details of such a thing was down the line for me.

As for chroming interior parts, had the thought some russian rifles did that historically, just poked about and can't find that info- I am likely misremembering.

The thought had been that is useful for limiting fouling and corrosion. For the Dutch, the access to the South Afrikan chromium sources and extensive tropical commitments make the expense less unreasonable vs. need. I may look for the precedent again later.





I've shortened the barrel about 10% and given it a standard 20 round double stacked mag. I assume little or no chroming for the operating fuinction cycle parts, and a hollow metal Bergman type stock for the rifle with a pistol type grip. Forward furniture is metal with cooling fins.

H.

37

Tuesday, September 2nd 2008, 12:03am

I'm having a bit of a problem with the pistol grip, honestly. If you want to use a folding stock a la M1A1 Paratrooper, that's fine; otherwise I think the standard stock is probably going to be used. Not even all SMGs used pistol-grip stocks at this point.

38

Tuesday, September 2nd 2008, 12:06am

Ok a new idea since Persia is already using the MKMS, how about adapt it to the 8x35?

39

Tuesday, September 2nd 2008, 12:26am

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad
Ok a new idea since Persia is already using the MKMS, how about adapt it to the 8x35?

Eh... it could work.

The biggest problem I see is that it'd need some sort of addition like a gas rod, because I'm pretty sure an 8x35 round wouldn't work too well with a delayed blowback system. Even the Stg44 had a gas return system for the 7.92x33, so the Germans evidently felt a blowback system was required. The MKMS is pretty complicated anyway, hence it's high price.

I still think you should stick with the ZH-29/M for two or three more years, and there will be more SLR designs available which will be better than modifying an existing weapon.

howard

Unregistered

40

Tuesday, September 2nd 2008, 12:41am

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
I'm having a bit of a problem with the pistol grip, honestly. If you want to use a folding stock a la M1A1 Paratrooper, that's fine; otherwise I think the standard stock is probably going to be used. Not even all SMGs used pistol-grip stocks at this point.





I think that actually makes more sense. I've shortened the barrel even more, and this time we assume the eject port as well as the working faces of the firing chamber are chromed. Expensive, but feasible.

H.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "howard" (Sep 2nd 2008, 12:43am)