WesWorld

Would y'all be happy that the following reports of "El Cid"(SS1 and SS2) would be fair, as I'd like to contemplate a refit/rebuild?

The SS1 file........
El Cid, Iberia Armoured Cruiser laid down 1920

Displacement:
22,338 t light; 23,337 t standard; 25,208 t normal; 26,604 t full load
Loading submergence 1,267 tons/feet

Dimensions:
771.00 ft x 90.88 ft x 24.93 ft (normal load)
235.00 m x 27.70 m x 7.60 m

Armament:
12 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (4 Main turrets x 3 guns, 2 superfiring turrets)
12 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (4 2nd turrets x 3 guns)
12 - 2.24" / 57 mm AA guns
16 - 0.53" / 14 mm guns
Weight of broadside 5,935 lbs / 2,692 kg
12 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
Belt 9.06" / 230 mm, ends unarmoured
Belts cover 102 % of normal area
Main turrets 9.06" / 230 mm, 2nd turrets 3.15" / 80 mm
AA gun shields 0.79" / 20 mm
Armour deck 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower 9.06" / 230 mm
Torpedo bulkhead 0.98" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 122,384 shp / 91,298 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 13.00 kts

Complement:
1,000 - 1,300

Cost:
£4.737 million / $18.948 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 742 tons, 2.9 %
Armour: 6,571 tons, 26.1 %
Belts: 2,197 tons, 8.7 %, Armament: 2,136 tons, 8.5 %, Armour Deck: 1,614 tons, 6.4 %
Conning Tower: 168 tons, 0.7 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 455 tons, 1.8 %
Machinery: 4,279 tons, 17.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,596 tons, 42.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,870 tons, 11.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0.6 %

Metacentric height 5.2

Remarks:
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation & workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1.09
Shellfire needed to sink: 27,748 lbs / 12,586 Kg = 65.8 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 3.5
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 70 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0.42
Relative quality as seaboat: 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0.505
Sharpness coefficient: 0.35
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 8.04
'Natural speed' for length: 27.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim: 58
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 101.4 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 166.2 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 119 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 1.00
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 160 lbs / square foot or 783 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1.07
(for 23.13 ft / 7.05 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment 4.91 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 1.01


And the SS2 file.........
El Cid, Iberia Armoured Cruiser laid down 1920

Displacement:
22,312 t light; 23,326 t standard; 25,208 t normal; 26,714 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
796.50 ft / 771.00 ft x 90.88 ft x 24.93 ft (normal load)
242.77 m / 235.00 m x 27.70 m x 7.60 m

Armament:
12 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (4x3 guns), 421.80lbs / 191.32kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (6x2 guns), 67.03lbs / 30.41kg shells, 1920 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
16 - 0.53" / 13.5 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.08lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,935 lbs / 2,692 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
12 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.06" / 230 mm 508.53 ft / 155.00 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
0.98" / 25 mm 508.53 ft / 155.00 m 22.97 ft / 7.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.06" / 230 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 9.06" / 230 mm
2nd: 3.15" / 80 mm 2.36" / 60 mm 3.15" / 80 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
4th: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -

- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 9.06" / 230 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 122,292 shp / 91,230 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 13.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,387 tons

Complement:
999 - 1,300

Cost:
£4.734 million / $18.935 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 742 tons, 2.9 %
Armour: 6,446 tons, 25.6 %
- Belts: 2,228 tons, 8.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 425 tons, 1.7 %
- Armament: 1,917 tons, 7.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,708 tons, 6.8 %
- Conning Tower: 168 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 4,276 tons, 17.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,698 tons, 42.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,896 tons, 11.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
36,398 lbs / 16,510 Kg = 86.3 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 5.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.505
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.48 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Stern: 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Average freeboard: 23.13 ft / 7.05 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 168.0 %
Waterplane Area: 46,898 Square feet or 4,357 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 120 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 159 lbs/sq ft or 777 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.01
- Longitudinal: 1.10
- Overall: 1.02
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

I don't see any major issues, except for her survivability improving significantly she hasn't gained much of anything else.

All her major stats, armament, speed, range ect appear to be the same and her freeboard and BC are still the same as well.

Seems ok to me!

As for a refit, she'll have a tough time in herorriginal role with all the 12" gunned ships in her class that have been built since so a refit to increase AA would seem prudent, to allow her to run with Iberian CV's.

Part 1 - Would a twin 30cm turret fit onto the triple 24cm barbette?

Part 2 - If the above change could occur, would the changes in the ammunition handling equipment WITHIN the barbette then require a 75% reconstruction that barbette changes require, or would it be covered by a 50% rebuild?

But of course it is not fair! The Mexicans will point out that she seems to have grown 4 extra guns, and the 31 knots are an obious misprint as she is only capable of 28 knots, while we have no idea where those 30mm of extra belt armor came from. Therefore we must come to the comclusion that the Iberians must be cheating...

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
But of course it is not fair! The Mexicans will point out that she seems to have grown 4 extra guns, and the 31 knots are an obious misprint as she is only capable of 28 knots, while we have no idea where those 30mm of extra belt armor came from. Therefore we must come to the comclusion that the Iberians must be cheating...

There's nothing wrong with El Cid that can't be cured by the Mexicans putting their glasses back on, and staying OFF the tequila!!

While the above was obiously in jest, I did take a look at the Iberian encyclopedia, and the Santa Maria s seem to have grown 2 (or 1) extra guns, and 3 extra knots, while losing some armor. What happened?

The best would be to scrap it and sell the guns to Persia!

Sell her to Colombia! Peru might not like that but....

Quoted

Originally posted by Commodore Green
Part 1 - Would a twin 30cm turret fit onto the triple 24cm barbette?

Part 2 - If the above change could occur, would the changes in the ammunition handling equipment WITHIN the barbette then require a 75% reconstruction that barbette changes require, or would it be covered by a 50% rebuild?

Part 1 - I honestly doubt it. A 30cm guns including gun house already is a fair bit larger, heavier and has heavier forces involved than a 28cm gun, even more so for a 24cm caliber weapon. That´s most likely too much in size, weight and forces than the old 24cm barbet and supporting structure could handle. It´s not only the barbet that would require some modifications if you don´t want to rip your ship apart when firing the guns...

Part 2 - I fear it´s 75% but I will not object 50% if the boards majority says so.


In general I´d propose to take a look at navweaps.com for gun size, weight, turret size etc.

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
While the above was obiously in jest, I did take a look at the Iberian encyclopedia, and the Santa Maria s seem to have grown 2 (or 1) extra guns, and 3 extra knots, while losing some armor. What happened?

The Santa Marias are the same, slightly faster after their re-engining. I'm not sure on the Portugal-Class, I remeber them having more speed around 24-25knts and a TDS.

I wouldn't rebuild El Cid, just a refit with more AA guns and a few systems changes.

I seem to recall the Santa Marias with less guns and a different armor scheme than El Cid. And I can't find anything on their rebuilt, when did that happen?

CG,

why do you think 24cm guns are no longer suffice to scare off cruisers?

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
CG,

why do you think 24cm guns are no longer suffice to scare off cruisers?

I believe that they will, I'm just checking all the options at this time.

RA's comments about a refit are starting to be the most likely outcome

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
CG,

why do you think 24cm guns are no longer suffice to scare off cruisers?

Probably the surge in 15-20k ton 'cruisers' with 10-12" guns among the nations El Cid was intended to intimidate.

EDIT: Or what CG said.

Quoted

I seem to recall the Santa Marias with less guns and a different armor scheme than El Cid.

Maybe you're thinking of Navarra? The Santa Marias have always had 5x2x240mm and 230mm belt armour to my knowledge.

No, I'm sure it was the Santa Marias. I took a good long look at them while designing the Villas.

The mistake wa.s to eliminate the ships specs before the supposed refits. If he has the originals stats he should post them again, akin to the job the Doctor did on India or the same Hoo and SA do in their nations

Iberia was obliterated by the it's creator in a clash of opinions many sim years ago.

I have limited stats on Iberian vessels, and any I have are posted.

Please stop asking for what I cannot deliver!

I had a look through my old files and don't have anything on the Santa Marias unfortunately, but I'm sure the current data is more or less correct. I did find some pictures of El Cid and a sim of Portugal though;





Portugal, Iberia BB laid down 1915

Displacement:
33,145 t light; 34,723 t standard; 37,105 t normal; 39,011 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
685.70 ft / 682.41 ft x 104.99 ft x 27.89 ft (normal load)
209.00 m / 208.00 m x 32.00 m x 8.50 m

Armament:
12 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1,308.20lbs / 593.39kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 6.69" / 170 mm guns in single mounts, 149.90lbs / 67.99kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 18,363 lbs / 8,330 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
5 - 18.9" / 480 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 426.51 ft / 130.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 5.91" / 150 mm 160.76 ft / 49.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
95.14 ft / 29.00 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 7.87" / 200 mm 426.51 ft / 130.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.76" / 70 mm 426.51 ft / 130.00 m 26.25 ft / 8.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 9.06" / 230 mm 11.8" / 300 mm
2nd: 7.87" / 200 mm - -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 75,000 shp / 55,950 Kw = 24.88 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,288 tons

Complement:
1,336 - 1,737

Cost:
£5.071 million / $20.282 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,295 tons, 6.2 %
Armour: 13,916 tons, 37.5 %
- Belts: 4,853 tons, 13.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,141 tons, 3.1 %
- Armament: 3,595 tons, 9.7 %
- Armour Deck: 3,997 tons, 10.8 %
- Conning Tower: 330 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 2,841 tons, 7.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,093 tons, 38.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,960 tons, 10.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
48,386 lbs / 21,947 Kg = 37.0 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 8.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 67 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.11

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.650
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.12 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Mid (60 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m (14.76 ft / 4.50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Stern: 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Average freeboard: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155.0 %
Waterplane Area: 54,884 Square feet or 5,099 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 196 lbs/sq ft or 959 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.18
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Santa Marias have

5*2*240 mm in A-B-Q-X-Y, 230 mm Armour and no all or nothing armour scheme

may have lost Q when being reengined, I remember a conversation with CG to this effect.