WesWorld

Hmm, maybe I'll have the Belgians buy them and scrap them then, they have spare tonnage....not sure if they have the spare dock though

Colombia's looking for capital ships of some type, either used or new. In fact they are looking at a new BC design being floated around the Atlantean design bureau but if a used design proves more economical...

If I understood Hoo correctly the price for the Hertogs to service would be more expensive than build new ships to the same design 50% battle damage repair ~10Kt +50-75% refit ie mounting guns greater than 194mm ~10-15kt

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad
If I understood Hoo correctly the price for the Hertogs to service would be more expensive than build new ships to the same design 50% battle damage repair ~10Kt +50-75% refit ie mounting guns greater than 194mm ~10-15kt

I guess that for that cost is indeed too expensive. Paying 10000t for a battle damaged/ unarmed ship is a little too for a small nation. The only advantage will be that this ship will be in service on a shorter time than a newer one but the service time will be closer to nothing. (Remember the ship was laid down in 1911 IIRC) So I guess I agree with Vuk.

No that is 20-25Kt just for repair and arming, purchase price became irrelevant after that....

2.2.2.4 Level 4: Partial Reconstruction (cost = 50%, except ships of 2,999 t light or less --> 25%)

-Changes to bunkerage (type or quantity): P
-Replacement of superstructure: P
-Changes to internal belt armor: P (upper), D (ends, main)
-Changes to deck armor: P
-Alterations to guns of 66mm-195mm involving barbette alterations: P
-Replacement of secondary barbettes with powerplant machinery: D
-Alterations to guns 196mm and larger not involving barbette alterations: P
-Change to powerplant (type and output): D
-Change to bow form: D
-Change to trim of ship: D
-Change to torpedo bulkheads: D

2.2.2.5 Level 5: Total Reconstruction (cost = 75%, except ships of 2,999 t light or less --> 50%)

-Alterations to guns 196mm and larger involving barbette alterations: D
-Replacement of main barbette with powerplant machinery: D
-Insertion or removal of section of hull amidships: D
-Reshaping of stern (does not allow creation of transom): D
-Welding of ships together (must be like type/class): D

I would assume the refit/modernization costs would cover battle damage repair, actually. I don't recall any rule that requires they be paid seperately. Otherwise, you get the same issue discussed earlier somewhere; it becomes uneconomical to raise and repair ships like happened at Taranto or Pearl Harbor, or other similiar situatons.

Asked Hoo:

-----Original Message-----
From: HoOmAn
Date: 18.08.2008 19:36
To: Vukovlad
Subject: Hertog Alexander

First thing - a repair is not a refit. So "no" to this question.

Second, the scrap value of each Hertogs is higher than what you offered So a "nay" to your offer of 1700ts per hull too.


-----Original Message-----
From: Vukovlad
Date: 18.08.2008 19:33
To: HoOmAn
Subject: Hertog Alexander

If I understand correctly the Hertog Alexander is around 50% (battle damage and stripped guns) so the offer is 1700tons.

I also got a rule question would a 50% refit count against the necessary repairs?

Right - that´s how I thought it would be.

Otherwise I have a dozen ships - from escort to BB - that are in the need of a refit anyway but just get their battle damage repaired .....

Should I be wrong I really need to know....

By what you're saying Hoo, a heavily damaged ship (a la Taranto, Pearl Harbour) would require 75-100% cost in repairs, then another 25-50% in refit and modernization...what's the point in repairing ships if you can get new tonnage for the same price, or significantly cheaper if you want them updated at the same time? I just counted R&R's collision damage as part of the modernization costs since the modernization was addressing the area of damage (New bow form for the bow damage, and bulging for the side damage).

The best solution would be that the refit has to cover where the damage is (replacing instead of repairing damaged guns, bulging or other hull work to repair hull damage, superstructure changes to repair superstructure damage, etc), but that might get too complicated to keep track of.

In short, look at history. When ships come in with battle damage, they always seem to leave with various improvements and modernizations done during the same yard period. I can't think of a single example offhand of a ship leaving the yard exactly how it was before it was damaged.

....I had actually thought that a refit/rebuild would take care of battle damage, once the % of refit was greater than the % of damage.

Heck I just paid extra tonnage for the service life extension of my transports to account for the several years overdue.

Still, I am of the opinion that the refit costs are a bit high, and technically they allow complete replacement of the swapped out item, though storyline economics may argue against replacing all the ships armor just because your re-engining.

So if the refit > repair %, that should cover it.

This is a VERY good question and the last time I had to repair a ship I was told its repair costs on top of refit costs, which doesn't make any sence.

It might for minor refits but major repairs would just be too cost prohibitive, even more so then some jobs were that led to ships being scrapped.

Gonna put a thread in Meeting Place to discuss the issue, since it seems we're not all on the same page...

So how do I bring this puppy down to a reasonable displacement?

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1937

Displacement:
3 304 t light; 3 474 t standard; 3 607 t normal; 3 714 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
314,96 ft / 314,96 ft x 62,34 ft x 13,12 ft (normal load)
96,00 m / 96,00 m x 19,00 m x 4,00 m

Armament:
2 - 9,44" / 240 mm guns (1x2 guns), 420,62lbs / 190,79kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline forward
4 - 5,12" / 130 mm guns (2x2 guns), 67,03lbs / 30,40kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
12 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1 115 lbs / 506 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5,91" / 150 mm 106,30 ft / 32,40 m 9,71 ft / 2,96 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 52 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7,87" / 200 mm 3,94" / 100 mm 3,94" / 100 mm
2nd: 2,36" / 60 mm 2,36" / 60 mm 2,36" / 60 mm
3rd: 0,79" / 20 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3,15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 3,15" / 80 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 2 shafts, 7 947 shp / 5 929 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 5 000nm at 10,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 240 tons

Complement:
232 - 302

Cost:
£1,438 million / $5,751 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 139 tons, 3,9 %
Armour: 1 300 tons, 36,0 %
- Belts: 338 tons, 9,4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 161 tons, 4,5 %
- Armour Deck: 785 tons, 21,8 %
- Conning Tower: 16 tons, 0,4 %
Machinery: 220 tons, 6,1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 644 tons, 45,6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 303 tons, 8,4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9 336 lbs / 4 235 Kg = 22,2 x 9,4 " / 240 mm shells or 2,7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,20
Metacentric height 3,5 ft / 1,1 m
Roll period: 14,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,25
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,12

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,490
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,05 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21,60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Mid (50 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Stern: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Average freeboard: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 50,8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 145,2 %
Waterplane Area: 13 478 Square feet or 1 252 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 126 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 96 lbs/sq ft or 468 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,90
- Longitudinal: 2,47
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad
4 - 5,12" / 130 mm guns (2x2 guns), 67,03lbs / 30,40kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 1 raised mount - superfiring

Did you mean centerline aft (superfiring), or one on each broadside? In the latter case, one would think they're either both raised, or neither.

Also, why electric motors?

As for reducing the displacement, there's pick one or more of the 'holy trinity' (engines, armor, armament), and start reducing.

What role is the ship playing? It looks like a CDS ship or monitor, in which case you can probably knock down some range. If it's a monitor, you can knock down speed as well, maybe some armor as well.

Its a monitor the other things were just mistakes, updated design

Possible Kaivan And Khordad replacement

Buyasta, Persia Patrol/Escort laid down 1937

Displacement:
615 t light; 638 t standard; 779 t normal; 891 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
219,82 ft / 219,82 ft x 26,25 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
67,00 m / 67,00 m x 8,00 m x 3,00 m

Armament:
6 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns (3x2 guns), 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1935 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 85 lbs / 38 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
3 - 24,0" / 609,6 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1,18" / 30 mm 1,18" / 30 mm 1,18" / 30 mm
2nd: 1,18" / 30 mm - -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 8 545 shp / 6 374 Kw = 24,00 kts
Range 5 000nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 253 tons

Complement:
73 - 95

Cost:
£0,347 million / $1,387 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 11 tons, 1,4 %
Armour: 17 tons, 2,2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 17 tons, 2,2 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 237 tons, 30,4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 321 tons, 41,2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 164 tons, 21,0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 30 tons, 3,9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
781 lbs / 354 Kg = 57,9 x 3,0 " / 76 mm shells or 0,4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,01
Metacentric height 0,7 ft / 0,2 m
Roll period: 13,4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,43
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,04

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,480
Length to Beam Ratio: 8,38 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14,83 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Mid (50 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m (9,97 ft / 3,04 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9,97 ft / 3,04 m
- Stern: 9,97 ft / 3,04 m
- Average freeboard: 11,55 ft / 3,52 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 113,6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 59,9 %
Waterplane Area: 3 776 Square feet or 351 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 129 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 42 lbs/sq ft or 207 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,85
- Longitudinal: 4,21
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Not sure a triple 3" mount will fit on a 26.25' beam, unless your siming complex twins. Might be better to mount 3 or 4 three ince weapons and add more "escort" gear, DC's, sweeping gear ect.

What triples?