Planned Siamese Army acquisitions for 1937.

Scooby-Doo

Monday, August 18th 2008, 2:50am

To be fair, of course, 1943 US tech doesn't apply to the US in WW 1936 either. At best, it could apply in 1938, but this tech doesn't really look like something that would be developed too much ahead of it's historical timeline, since one of the driving forces is the desire for a propellent that's stable over a wide temperature range. Barring a world war that the US is involved in, it's not something that the US is likely to accelerate research on.

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parador

Sage

Posts: 3,829

62

Monday, August 18th 2008, 10:27am

I wonder a little bit. SIAM a great player ???? Only with round about 20 Million people ???

With what financial resources can SIAM afford this upgrade ? SIAM buys two zeppelins of the size of the Hindenburg, and now SIAM equips on the military sector.

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howard

Unregistered

63

Monday, August 18th 2008, 2:08pm

FY 1936 budget spent so far.
150 Pullinger II's $3.3 million.
2 White Cranes $1.1 million
200 assorted trucks $2,0 million
100 Pullinger 1's with trailers $1.0 million
100 Skoda Siam tracks $1.0 million
10,000 rifles $1.0 million
10,000 SMGs $2.0 million
100 artillery pieces $1.0 million
200 mortars $0.2 million
12 FWS-84A Ente II fighters $1.2 million
12 FWB-84B Ente Ii bombers $1.5 million
100 RPGs BAM R-1 $0.1 million

Total so far: $15.4 million
Budget burden limit per FY ($4/Thai) $57.856 million
or ($10/estimated Thai adult @ 40% of population base)

http://www.unescobkk.org/fileadmin/user_…d/Chapter_2.pdf
1937 {14,464,105 total by census}

Estimated 1937 WW per capita $200/Thai adult @ 5,,785,624 Thai taxpayers=$1.712,billion taxable earned income FY1937. Tax burden pegged at 5%

Planned military budget is 50% of government operating budget or $28.928 million-3/4 towards modernization over the next three years or $21.696 million on average per FY.

This isn't even putting a strain on the Siamese economy. With a projected economic growth rate of 3%^ this allows room for a rocket research program and aggressive industrialization.

If I flat out assume a 10% growth spurt from 1937 on ward from the rapid industrialization [already storylined as part of the Lop Nuri aviation conference results] my taxable income base increases to an estimated $2.225 billion in FY 1940.

That is TWICE my operating taxable capital base in WW Peru as of now.

I know what I am doing. I don't have the money [infrastructure] for a big navy. I'm putting it where I do have the money and the storyline simmed, into a modernized RTA and soon into the RTNAF and civil aviation.

H.

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "howard" (Aug 18th 2008, 2:34pm)

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Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

64

Monday, August 18th 2008, 2:11pm

Quoted

Originally posted by howard
Planned military budget is 50% of government operating budget.

Isn't that extremely high? I was under the impression that 15-20% was the more regular figure.

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howard

Unregistered

65

Monday, August 18th 2008, 2:21pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by howard
Planned military budget is 50% of government operating budget.

Isn't that extremely high? I was under the impression that 15-20% was the more regular figure.

You are thinking of a modern European social liberal democracy.

Siam isn't. Its more like 1930s Japan. Its also a 5% total tax rate. Japan's or Britain's at the time was something like 30% on the capital income base.

H.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "howard" (Aug 18th 2008, 2:23pm)

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Brockpaine

The Shadow

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Monday, August 18th 2008, 2:37pm

What would be Siam's figures from previous years? Still about 50%? If not, what services are lost with the budget change?

(I'm not asking to protest, I'm asking because it's apparent you've worked this out and can perhaps answer my curiosity.)

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howard

Unregistered

67

Monday, August 18th 2008, 2:48pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
What would be Siam's figures from previous years? Still about 50%? If not, what services are lost with the budget change?

(I'm not asking to protest, I'm asking because it's apparent you've worked this out and can perhaps answer my curiosity.)

I haven't got a clue. Good pre-1937 data is useless as in non-existent. From 1937 on I can trackback military budget share of government expenses fluctuations of 3-10% up or down on the Thai military end of things as they are the ones who commissioned the economic studies, censuses, and what not. This hasn't changed until very recently.

The RTL Thais are crazy. They bought an aircraft carrier in the real world in the middle of an economic downturn They bought a freaking aircraft carrier.

What I'm doing WW by those RTL standards is rational and sane.

H.

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Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

68

Monday, August 18th 2008, 2:56pm

Well, as I understand, they bought Chakri Naruebet after one of those big tsunamis or a cyclone, and they weren't able to get helicopters off to various affected regions since all their bases were damaged. They wanted a mobile helicopter base that could survive a natural disaster. It's more like HMS Audacity was than anything else...

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Vukovlad

Me too !!!

Posts: 4,137

69

Monday, August 18th 2008, 3:02pm

IIRC the Chakri Naruebet was called an "Ocean going patrol vessel" to get it through parliament

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Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

70

Monday, August 18th 2008, 3:06pm

That's because "King's attempt at the world's biggest militarized yacht" wouldn't have sold, and was too wordy.

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howard

Unregistered

71

Monday, August 18th 2008, 3:38pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
That's because "King's attempt at the world's biggest militarized yacht" wouldn't have sold, and was too wordy.

Now if you look closely, you will see some things.

Quoted

FY 1936 budget spent so far.
150 Pullinger II's $3.3 million.
2 White Cranes $1.1 million
200 assorted trucks $2,0 million
100 Pullinger 1's with trailers $1.0 million
100 Skoda Siam tracks $1.0 million
10,000 rifles $1.0 million
10,000 SMGs $2.0 million
100 artillery pieces $1.0 million
200 mortars $0.2 million
12 FWS-84A Ente II fighters $1.2 million
12 FWB-84B Ente Ii bombers $1.5 million
100 RPGs BAM R-1 $0.1 million

Total so far: $15.4 million

You will see the equipment for two motorized brigades. and one composite training air wing and the beginnings of an long range airship cargo freight service.

These are announced 1936 purchases. Next year's budget depends on the BAM research program, Avrit Singham, and a host of other factors [Desert Fox, if you read this, PM me.]

H.

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Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

72

Monday, August 18th 2008, 3:46pm

Would you have figures for Bulgaria, perchance? (I couldn't read the link due to my current computer - have to read it at home.)

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howard

Unregistered

73

Monday, August 18th 2008, 4:05pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
Would you have figures for Bulgaria, perchance? (I couldn't read the link due to my current computer - have to read it at home.)

That data source just gives some general Thai and Burmese economic data. For the military stuff I have to give you sources for which I have to pay service fees. You might not want to do that.

For Bulgaria, your question is too broad: what exactly do you need?

For example: do you need the tax base?

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journ…ETRY=1&SRETRY=0

That is one of my sources.

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/dimitrov/index.htm

Try him for some background to get an idea of just how backward Bulgaria was.

http://www.country-studies.com/bulgaria/

Read in particular the crisis of the 1930s.

That should start you.

H.

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thesmilingassassin

The Chosen One

Posts: 13,513

74

Monday, August 18th 2008, 4:51pm

Hmm, if you could post some of this stuff in the links thread it could prove usefull.

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Red Admiral

Italian Stallion

Posts: 7,019

75

Monday, August 18th 2008, 5:56pm

50% spending on the military is wartime level spending. For Germany, the USA and the UK it was around 60%. For peacetime, 10% is fairly ruinous. Isn't it better to build some roads and hospitals instead?

Capital purchases of equipment are extremely small in comparison to a budget. Keeping the equipment working, training and manning it accounts for a far greater cost.

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howard

Unregistered

76

Monday, August 18th 2008, 6:12pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
50% spending on the military is wartime level spending. For Germany, the USA and the UK it was around 60%. For peacetime, 10% is fairly ruinous. Isn't it better to build some roads and hospitals instead?

Quoted

Capital purchases of equipment are extremely small in comparison to a budget. Keeping the equipment working, training and manning it accounts for a far greater cost.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/year1902_0.html#usgs302

Please check your assumptions. US governmental peacetime expenditures are more or less ratioed as the above Siam model prior to 1940 with a "wartime" expenditure.

Less than 2% of Siam's GDP is going to its military.

Divide $28 million into $1.7 billion and see for yourself as a percentage. Its something like 1.7 percent.

2% of Siam's GDP would be $34 million.

You have more than enough capital for hospitals and roads.

H.

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Rooijen10

Mr. Valentines Day

Posts: 9,644

77

Monday, August 18th 2008, 9:27pm

Quoted

That is FAST for a small heavy rocket aerodynamically balanced. Brushing through leaves is not going to stop it, nor are twigs or small branches. It will just smash through.

My mistake then. I thought you were talking about setting a grenade off when it hits the branches it passes.

Quoted

Maybe? I don't know. That bomb is traveling at 1/3 the RPG's velocity, is un-powered, is not fin-stabilized and spinning, and if it hits something and FALLS down on you with its time tape still burning? Sayanara owasho......

I'm not sure. When you look at the picture of the Type 91 grenade (as well as the older Type 10 grenade that's above it in the Encyclopedia, that screw-on thing has a number of gas vents on the side. If they are angled, the escaping gasses through there once the grenade is fired would spin the grenade for stability like a bullet... but I must warn you that that is pure speculation on my part when I look at the picture (... and I am too lazy right now to look up details about it after that long trip back home yesterday).

Quoted

........and the grenade rolls back into my lap. I have to put the grenade in with the guys who occupy the bunker and who are doing their best to kill me.

Conclusion: If the coconut log bunker is right in front of you, you have come too close to it.

Quoted

I think I stand a better chance, if I can aim a rocket into the bunker. It slams into the bunker even if I miss the embrasure from a hundred or more meters away. It impacts at more than eighty meters per second, buries itself and explodes with enough force to tear a four passenger car into steel confetti. The guys inside the bunker are going to feel it. They will be shaken up while I reload.

... which is why you would want to use it when the coconut log bunker is still some distance away. ^_^

Quoted

For you see that the RTA:
a. is very short of mortars
b. is artillery poor.
c. doesn't have more than 30 or so gun-tanks.

Shows you that Siam joined the wrong side. *runs away*

Quoted

That Roo is a bonk bomb you showed me, not the standard Type 88 mortar bomb.

Considering that it is among the Type 89 equipment in the picture below (right to the right of the launcher), I thought it was the best example to give to indicate that it does not have any fins.

I think I got the Type 89 text in the Encyclopedia from Wiki and among the ammunition list, it said "Type 91 high explosive grenade fitted with 7 second delay fuse" of which I showed the picture. The one you showed in the links (and many thanks for those two links by the way

) is no doubt the "Type 89 high explosive grenade fitted with impact fuse" then.

Quoted

The sons of heaven would take a bonk bomb and beat the fuse on their helmets to activate it, and then walk into GI Joe from Kokomoe. Three seconds and............. Yikes!

Don't you mean BONK the fuse on their helmets? *runs away*

Quoted

No, you are right, but Avrit Singham, the Siamese genius who dreans this up in the storyline, has thought about using the rocket launcher as a cheap substitute for artillery, which is why he works on it. He thinks that rockets are a way for Siam to equalize the odds. He's a fanatic on the subject.

Well, if Siam had joined the right alliance, they would have had access to very mobile, airborne rocket artillery with extremely high accuracy (NOT!!!)

Japanese scientists have been working with the Le Prieur Rocket ever since it appeared during WW-1. I guess that Avrit Singham would love those toys.

Quoted

I can see my Siamese rocketeers wearing chain mail hoods shirts and mail veils to protect their faces and upper bodies........

What?!? No full plate armor???

Quoted

I see questions not errors. Its made me explain in some detail my thinking about why I chose this solution based on Siam and the RTA as I sim it.

Yes, thanks. Made things more clear.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Rooijen10" (Aug 18th 2008, 9:28pm)

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WesWorld

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