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1

Thursday, July 24th 2008, 5:59pm

Aircraft armament partners sought!

The Persian Air Force and the Taslihat-e Artesh are seeking partners for the development of a 20-25mm AC that can be synchronized. The Persian air force is also considering enlarging the current 15mm MG for which it also seeks a partner.

2

Friday, July 25th 2008, 3:12pm

Caliber: 20 mm
Cartridge: 20×108
Rate of fire: 700rounds/min
Muzzle velocity: 800 m/s
Weight: 42kg
Length: 1700mm

First try, comments?

3

Friday, July 25th 2008, 3:55pm

Rate of fire would probably start off around 600rpm I'd think given the big 20x108 round. The barrel is a bit short, lengthen it and get a higher muzzle velocity at around 850m/s for a bit more weight. I assume the 20x108 would have similar characteristics to the 20x110 so you'd want the longer barrel to accelerate the round better.

howard

Unregistered

4

Friday, July 25th 2008, 4:10pm

That gun will not lay in the valley of that engine he plans to use for his indigenous fighter, RA. The barrel will be too long and the recoil travel too violent for the space he needs to cram it into.

Not to mention how is he going to expend spent brass?

H.

5

Friday, July 25th 2008, 5:41pm

What about upscaling a 0.50" Browning instead like the Japanese. Chambering for the 20x72RB or preferably the 20x100RB round with some strengthening to parts of the gun in order to keep the rate of fire up. Looking at the Ho-5 cannon, with the 20x100RB you'll have a gun thats a bit heavier (maybe 40kg) and fires around 600rpm with 750m/s mv and a reasonable shell. The rate of fire would drop for the synchronised versions to around the 450rpm of the 0.50" M2.

Quoted

That gun will not lay in the valley of that engine he plans to use for his indigenous fighter, RA.


But its a radial engine and the guns fire around the outside of it. The drawing does look like there is an engine mounted gun (and photos of the actual plane in OTL) but that is impossible. Case ejection through the fuselage sides.

howard

Unregistered

6

Friday, July 25th 2008, 5:54pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
What about upscaling a 0.50" Browning instead like the Japanese. Chambering for the 20x72RB or preferably the 20x100RB round with some strengthening to parts of the gun in order to keep the rate of fire up. Looking at the Ho-5 cannon, with the 20x100RB you'll have a gun thats a bit heavier (maybe 40kg) and fires around 600rpm with 750m/s mv and a reasonable shell. The rate of fire would drop for the synchronised versions to around the 450rpm of the 0.50" M2.

Quoted

That gun will not lay in the valley of that engine he plans to use for his indigenous fighter, RA.


But its a radial engine and the guns fire around the outside of it. The drawing does look like there is an engine mounted gun (and photos of the actual plane in OTL) but that is impossible. Case ejection through the fuselage sides.


Agreed. Still it would be simpler to mount two guns in a strengthened wing box and lay out an ammunition tray feed as the Japanese did with their licensed version of the Oelikon FFL that they developed in 1942 or thereabouts. You keep the relatively high muzzle velocity and mechanically simplify your guns, as well as keep weight down and keep that brass away from your windscreen as it scatters. You can even use long barrels!

H.

7

Friday, July 25th 2008, 7:02pm

Quoted

Originally posted by howard
That gun will not lay in the valley of that engine he plans to use for his indigenous fighter, RA. The barrel will be too long and the recoil travel too violent for the space he needs to cram it into.

Not to mention how is he going to expend spent brass?

H.


You know that a gun of roughly those dimensions were planned for the real I-28?

howard

Unregistered

8

Friday, July 25th 2008, 7:55pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad

Quoted

Originally posted by howard
That gun will not lay in the valley of that engine he plans to use for his indigenous fighter, RA. The barrel will be too long and the recoil travel too violent for the space he needs to cram it into.

Not to mention how is he going to expend spent brass?

H.


You know that a gun of roughly those dimensions were planned for the real I-28?


Yes, and I just told you why it didn't work.

H.

9

Friday, July 25th 2008, 8:29pm

And what has given you that impression? The I-28 was dropped because of the engine, much the same arrangement is in the Lavochkin series

howard

Unregistered

10

Friday, July 25th 2008, 9:13pm

The failure of the test program [deathtrap in a dive due to CG and trim issues caused by gun and engine mass forward gave me that impression.

http://www.aviastar.org/air/russia/yatsenko_i-28.php

H.

11

Saturday, July 26th 2008, 11:09am

You could also see that five more preproduction aircraft were built before the program was terminated. Btw it doesn´t say that the dive leading to breaking up is due to CG reasons.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Vukovlad" (Jul 26th 2008, 11:16am)


12

Saturday, July 26th 2008, 11:19am

To me it looks more like its overbalanced aft with the cockpit being set very far back. I'd probably want a larger vertical stabiliser as well. Most of the armament weight is over the wing and shouldn't effect the CoG much.

4x15mm HMG should give fairly decent firepower for the time being. You don't need to go shooting down heavy bombers yet. Something like the ShVAK should be possible using the 20x100RB round or similar. More power means more weight and length which could give problems with the light wooden construction of the aircraft.

13

Saturday, July 26th 2008, 11:54am

Since I havent got permission to use either the I-28 or the engines it may all be theoretical, of course i havent asked for permission yet. The other aircraft i was thinking of basing a persian fighter is the Polikarpov I-185 but with the DB-3/Il-4 controversy that is unlikely as well.

howard

Unregistered

14

Saturday, July 26th 2008, 12:44pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
To me it looks more like its overbalanced aft with the cockpit being set very far back. I'd probably want a larger vertical stabiliser as well. Most of the armament weight is over the wing and shouldn't effect the CoG much.

4x15mm HMG should give fairly decent firepower for the time being. You don't need to go shooting down heavy bombers yet. Something like the ShVAK should be possible using the 20x100RB round or similar. More power means more weight and length which could give problems with the light wooden construction of the aircraft.


Ah, you got it in one-pendulum moment. And yes if you read the description of how the aircraft bombed into the ground, and what they tried to correct it, you will see that the plane is too much mass forward.

H.

15

Saturday, July 26th 2008, 1:02pm

Quoted

And yes if you read the description of how the aircraft bombed into the ground,


All the information given is that the prototype crashed in a terminal velocity dive. Deducing that there was too much mass forwards isn't intuitive. There are a many great other possibilities. Structural problems caused by the poor wooden construction is more likely.

16

Saturday, July 26th 2008, 1:06pm

The whole recoil/weight thing is one reason why Germany might end up staying with the historical MG-151/20 over the longer-cased, higher velocity version of the same weapon made by NOT shortening the 15mm x 96 case to 82mm to keep the overall length the same between rounds for the 15mm MG-151 and the 20mm MG-151/20. Conceptually, I like the higher velocity of the longer round, but the weight and recoil penalties of it need to be looked at. Not much of a problem to a Fw-190, but the Bf-109 might have a problem with it (especially if more than 1 were to be mounted). I also like the 20mm x 135 round developed for the MG-213C, but it has the same problem in spades.

howard

Unregistered

17

Saturday, July 26th 2008, 1:13pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral

Quoted

And yes if you read the description of how the aircraft bombed into the ground,


All the information given is that the prototype crashed in a terminal velocity dive. Deducing that there was too much mass forwards isn't intuitive. There are a many great other possibilities. Structural problems caused by the poor wooden construction is more likely.


Vertical stabilizer modified to correct induced yaw moment?

H.

howard

Unregistered

18

Saturday, July 26th 2008, 1:15pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
The whole recoil/weight thing is one reason why Germany might end up staying with the historical MG-151/20 over the longer-cased, higher velocity version of the same weapon made by NOT shortening the 15mm x 96 case to 82mm to keep the overall length the same between rounds for the 15mm MG-151 and the 20mm MG-151/20. Conceptually, I like the higher velocity of the longer round, but the weight and recoil penalties of it need to be looked at. Not much of a problem to a Fw-190, but the Bf-109 might have a problem with it (especially if more than 1 were to be mounted). I also like the 20mm x 135 round developed for the MG-213C, but it has the same problem in spades.


Pretty Boy Willy never did design his aircraft well for wing mounted guns did he? At least Kurt Tank did.

H.

19

Saturday, July 26th 2008, 1:22pm

The Bf-109 was designed too early, really, and no new design came out that was completely ready for prime time. The -109 was just too small for later developments: they could be shoe-horned in (like the DB-605, the MG-131s, etc), but there really wasn't room for them. The Fw-190 was several years later in design and was expected from the start to carry cannon in the wings, while the -109 was designed to carry rifle-caliber MGs and cannon were later fitted on.

20

Saturday, July 26th 2008, 8:58pm

I still haven't really decided where to take Italy. It depends on the threats that appear more than anything else. The current armament of 4x13.2mm Scotti HMGs will be sufficient for the time being. There are some Oerlikon FFLs in use but not that many. Instead of developing the FFL I think effort would be better used on developing a reasonable anti-tank gun based on either the 25/77 or the 37/54 AA guns.