WesWorld

Mexico is looking for a high altitude, high speed, long range strategic reconnaissance plane.

High speed, high altitude, AND long range? Might have to settle for 2 out of the 3, unless you can give more detailed values for what you see as high speed, altitude, and range....

Germany's looking into high-altitude recon planes, but any results are a ways away and the initial results probably won't be particularly fast. There's one possibility that might be adopted as an interim design, the Fw-187R, which is the Falke fitted with special high-altitude DB-601s and cameras replacing the 15mm MG-151s. This would be fast, but only moderately high altitude and moderately long-legged.


The US hasn't really started looking into this yet.

I should have said high performance strategic reconnaissance. I left it as open as possible to see what's available out there. I'll then chose the plane that best fits my mission profile, which is secret. One spec which I will reveal, preferably a 1,000 mile radius of action. I'll buy a plen with less range if the performance merits it.

That'll leave out the Falke, the bigger superchargers are going to eat up what weight isn't eaten by the cameras so 2,000 nm range isn't in the cards.

I think pretty much the only things that fit the bill are the XF-12 and XF-11 which are over the specs. Something like the F-5 Lightning could maybe just meet the specs. Or there is a P.R. Spitfire variant along the lines of the Mk.VIII that can get up to over 2000m range.

I'm not really sure what high altitude or high speeds means for Mexico though. 350mph and 25000ft? Might be pushing things with what is currently available.

Italy has something in the works that matches the requirements but it is a bomber rather than P.R. aircraft.

Hmm, stripping the G-1A down to a 400lb load (camera) and fuel, planebuilder allows 2,000nm range. Not all at high speed though

Even 600lbs left over so you could retain the rear twin MGs.

PB gives 5 m3 wing vol or 42% of capacity, required fuel faction is only 25%- so I think that means it theoretically can fit in the wings and/or booms, no gas tank in the fighting compartment.

So, if Iberia wants a counter, talk to Fokker

So no one has high performance PR planes? That's why I don't like to give out definite specs. They eliminate potentialy useful planes, that while not being what I'm looking for, might still be good enough for what I want.

High Speed: 300mph+
High Altitude: 35,000ft+
Long Range: 2,000m+

Yes I want a XF-12 or XF-11 type plane, or better yet a U-2. But I know such a plane isn't available at the moment, but what is?

Not the Dutch/Belgians/Kongoians/Luxembourgians.

The Dutch (or for that matter the Iberians with the handful they bought), as I outlined, have the capability, but its not a specialized thing. Simply strip down a G-1A for speed, load her with however much fuel is needed, use the bomb bay as the camera station, and let er rip.

Theres very very little with usuable ceilings of over 35000ft. Its got to be said whether your cameras are good enough to take decent pictures from that altitude.

The best bet is to buy a DC-3 paint it up in airline colours and install a secret camera bay and darkroom. Stealth at its best!

The RAF will employ Sidney Cotton at some point in the 1930s for just such a role.

1930s cameras are lilkely to be bulky, heavy and crappy at high altitudes. Once you fly high you need pressure cabins and superchargers etc. In fact such a spec is waay advanced for 1936, it will be an expensive plane.

Looking at it, a Fw-187A can get close to those, if you replace the 4 15mm MG-151s with a 600 pound Leica camera and increase the size of the fuel tanks. With the current DB-601As, it has a ceiling of 39000', at a speed of 311 mph. By flying at 36,000, you'd get a bit better behavior, and the engines wouldn't be straining quite so much.

Germany's working on the Ju-86P, but it isn't blessed with great range, or great speed. The Fw-200 and -205 have range to burn, but are not designed to fly at high altitudes and aren't fast.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
The best bet is to buy a DC-3 paint it up in airline colours and install a secret camera bay and darkroom. Stealth at its best!

The RAF will employ Sidney Cotton at some point in the 1930s for just such a role.

1930s cameras are lilkely to be bulky, heavy and crappy at high altitudes. Once you fly high you need pressure cabins and superchargers etc. In fact such a spec is waay advanced for 1936, it will be an expensive plane.

I think Hood has the best way.
Playing with trying to meet all three specs at once, my G-1c airframe can barely do the combo *in planebuilder*, but thats beyond the technical difficulties of operating that high that folks are pointing out, and really the plane isn't meant for it.

Quoted

PB gives 5 m3 wing vol or 42% of capacity, required fuel faction is only 25%- so I think that means it theoretically can fit in the wings and/or booms, no fuel tank in the fighting compartment.

No real chance of doing that. Wing tanks weren't very common in light aircraft at the time and movign the fuel away from the middle of the plane causes balance problems. Its very difficult to use the entire of the wing for fuel. Really only the middle third or so is thick enough for tanks, and about 10-20% of that space will be taken up by the ribs. You probably wouldn't want to mount fuel tanks out beyond the nacelles much for balance. The G.1 is rather limited for internal space, which is where drop tanks come in. However, for this application tip tanks would be more useful.

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
The best bet is to buy a DC-3 paint it up in airline colours and install a secret camera bay and darkroom. Stealth at its best!

The RAF will employ Sidney Cotton at some point in the 1930s for just such a role.

1930s cameras are lilkely to be bulky, heavy and crappy at high altitudes. Once you fly high you need pressure cabins and superchargers etc. In fact such a spec is waay advanced for 1936, it will be an expensive plane.

I think Hood has the best way.
Playing with trying to meet all three specs at once, my G-1c airframe can barely do the combo *in planebuilder*, but thats beyond the technical difficulties of operating that high that folks are pointing out, and really the plane isn't meant for it.

Agreed, the Fw-187 really isn't intended for this sort of work, even though it can probably do it OK. A real recon Falke would install specialized high-altitude engines (DB-601 NS?) and an extended wing onto the Falke fuselage, and to do it RIGHT you'd want to pressurize the cockpit, requiring a redesign of that part of the airframe. All in all, a real push for the period.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral

Quoted

PB gives 5 m3 wing vol or 42% of capacity, required fuel faction is only 25%- so I think that means it theoretically can fit in the wings and/or booms, no fuel tank in the fighting compartment.

No real chance of doing that. Wing tanks weren't very common in light aircraft at the time and movign the fuel away from the middle of the plane causes balance problems. Its very difficult to use the entire of the wing for fuel. Really only the middle third or so is thick enough for tanks, and about 10-20% of that space will be taken up by the ribs. You probably wouldn't want to mount fuel tanks out beyond the nacelles much for balance. The G.1 is rather limited for internal space, which is where drop tanks come in. However, for this application tip tanks would be more useful.

Good to know, wasn't sure if my presumptions were correct, hence why I spelled them out

I guess I'll go with a mix. Fw-187Rs for short range reccon, some covert airliners, and a reffit of my Do-17s for long range operations.

OTL the Yugoslavs used the Do-17K as a strategic recon

At least for temporary use, during the breakdown of the Wilno talks, several II Fliegerkorps Fw-187As are being modified by replacing the 15mm MG-151s with a pair of Leica cameras. It's not an ideal configuration, the DB-601As aren't designed for high-altitude (over 30,000 feet) cruising operations, but the range needed isn't all that long (it's less than 200 statute miles from Koenigsberg to Vilnius/Wilno) so if needed the planes can carry only a 2/3rds load of fuel and do the job at 32,000 feet or so.

*takes a look at the Iberian Q report*

Another RfP now for the Navy. The Armada de Mexico is looking for a heavy cannon armed aircraft that can be used in the anti-MTB role.

Bristol offers;

Bristol Type 142M Blenheim IIME; The aircraft is of all-metal construction with Frise mass-balanced ailerons and split flaps and with a retractable undercarriage. Three crewmen are carried and the armament consists of a 7.7mm Vickers in the port wing, one ventral pannier containing four 0.50in Vickers HMGs with 2000 rounds each and a dorsal turret with twin 7.7mm Vickers ‘K’ guns.
Dimensions; 56.4/ 42.7/ 9.10/ 469 sq ft; 2x 840hp Bristol Mercury VIII; max speed 222mph; range 1,400 miles and service ceiling 22,000ft.

Avro offers;

Avro 652A Anson IIME; Three crew are carried and the armament is one nose 7.7mm Vickers, one fixed ventral 20mm Hispano or Orkelion cannon and one dorsal turret with a 7.7mm Vickers ‘K’ LMG, bombload is 360lbs in wing bays.
Dimensions; 56.5/ 42.3/ 13.1/ 410 sq ft; 2x 350hp Armstrong Siddeley Cheetah IX; max speed 188mph; range 790 miles and service ceiling 19,000ft.