WesWorld

[Lay-down date at this point, considering the second setback and some other projects I forgot about, is definitely optimistic. However, on the upside, that means the ship can only get better.]

MIBN Netuno, Empire of Brazil Battleship laid down 1942

Displacement:
67,791 t light; 71,192 t standard; 73,703 t normal; 75,712 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
905.26 ft / 880.00 ft x 115.00 ft (Bulges 124.00 ft) x 39.40 ft (normal load)
275.92 m / 268.22 m x 35.05 m (Bulges 37.80 m) x 12.01 m

Armament:
9 - 16.73" / 425 mm guns (3x3 guns), 2,345.00lbs / 1,063.67kg shells, 1942 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward
Main guns limited to end-on fire
3 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns (1x3 guns), 110.00lbs / 49.90kg shells, 1942 Model
Quick firing guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on side amidships, all raised guns
12 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns (4x3 guns), 110.00lbs / 49.90kg shells, 1942 Model
Quick firing guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
32 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1942 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
24 - 0.54" / 13.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1942 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 12 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 22,807 lbs / 10,345 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 19.0" / 483 mm 570.00 ft / 173.74 m 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
3.00" / 76 mm 570.00 ft / 173.74 m 35.90 ft / 10.94 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 19.0" / 483 mm 11.3" / 286 mm 19.0" / 483 mm
2nd: 4.75" / 121 mm 2.75" / 70 mm 4.75" / 121 mm
3rd: 4.75" / 121 mm 2.75" / 70 mm 4.75" / 121 mm
4th: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
5th: 0.80" / 20 mm - -

- Armour deck: 9.50" / 241 mm, Conning tower: 19.00" / 483 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 140,475 shp / 104,794 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,520 tons

Complement:
2,236 - 2,907

Cost:
£33.562 million / $134.248 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,842 tons, 3.9 %
Armour: 32,908 tons, 44.6 %
- Belts: 8,837 tons, 12.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 2,271 tons, 3.1 %
- Armament: 7,522 tons, 10.2 %
- Armour Deck: 13,558 tons, 18.4 %
- Conning Tower: 720 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 3,670 tons, 5.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 27,872 tons, 37.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,912 tons, 8.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 0.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
168,615 lbs / 76,482 Kg = 72.0 x 16.7 " / 425 mm shells or 34.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.02
Metacentric height 6.4 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 20.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 1.05
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.10 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 34.43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 54.18 ft / 16.51 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 39.40 ft / 12.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 39.40 ft / 12.01 m
- Quarterdeck (17 %): 39.40 ft / 12.01 m
- Stern: 39.40 ft / 12.01 m
- Average freeboard: 40.40 ft / 12.32 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 57.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 258.9 %
Waterplane Area: 77,141 Square feet or 7,167 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 226 lbs/sq ft or 1,102 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.39
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Ships (2):
Netuno
Urano

Quoted

Originally posted by Fyrwulf
....
Armament:
9 - 16.73" / 425 mm guns (3x3 guns), 2,345.00lbs / 1,063.67kg shells, 1942 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward
Main guns limited to end-on fire


...

- Armour deck: 9.50" / 241 mm

...

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.02

Armour deck seems to be needlessly thick; Stability is terribly low (I redesign anything lower than 1.10); Recoil should be considerably lowered. She is spectacularly deep-drafting, I note - are Brazil's harbours even capable of taking her?

Lower her freeboard to 26 feet and see if that fixes a bit of the stability and recoil problems. 39 feet is way much!

1) The point of this ship is that it's supposed to be a beast, the best battleship in the world. Part of that is having an armour deck so thick that it is nigh-on impenetrable.

2) I just adjusted the trim to 37 (from the default 50.)

3) Rio is, but that's the only Brazilian harbor capable of taking her. I suppose I could change her draft, wouldn't hurt too much to lower it to 30ft.

4) I'll lower the freeboard, but probably only down to 30 feet (in my designs the freeboard always corresponds to the draft. That's how you know it's a Brazilian ship, besides the unique 25 degree rake of the bow and the pillar mast.

Tried tinkering with the freeboard and draft, didn't care for the results. Frankly the armour is the centerpiece of this ship and I'm not prepared to sacrifice it for anything. Also, I should note that Montana drew only 3' less water and was a somewhat lighter ship.

The deck is quite excessive as is the belt, unless your using excessive forsight. Who is she meant to fight, the Yamato?

She's meant to fight any conceivable battleship and win. This is pretty much Brazil's "maximum battleship".

Quoted

Originally posted by Fyrwulf
She's meant to fight any conceivable battleship and win. This is pretty much Brazil's "maximum battleship".

There are already completed battleships which I'd rate favorably against this current design, and some of those are on nearly half the tonnage. The Greek Megas Alexandros, while "only" having 12x14", has comparable specifications, and the Russian Soyuz Nerushimy has similar firepower.

IMHO, the deck armor is adding a great deal of unnecessary weight for little increase in protection. Perhaps if you're anticipating guided tungsten-capped bombs falling from orbit...

A maximum battleship that you'll be paying for even after she's sunk or considered obsolete. I doubt Brazil would have the resources to pay for it.

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
A maximum battleship that you'll be paying for even after she's sunk or considered obsolete. I doubt Brazil would have the resources to pay for it.

Frankly by the time I get to building proper capital ships, there won't be anything else to spend the tonnage on. I see no reason not to build them.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
the Russian Soyuz Nerushimy has similar firepower.

Indeed. I also have to consider my most likely opponent, which is the SAE. So, I think I'll go back to the drawing board and try for as near to total IZ as I can get against Hoo's 14.96" guns.

If I had that much tonnage available I would spend it on something more useful, like submarines and battlecruisers. Putting all your eggs into a single basket is mighty... well not very smart.

I'll have a pair of the new Rios before I build these two.

Does anybody know what cal Hoo's 14.96" guns are? I'm assuming 50, but I think that's probably excessive.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by Fyrwulf
She's meant to fight any conceivable battleship and win. This is pretty much Brazil's "maximum battleship".

There are already completed battleships which I'd rate favorably against this current design, and some of those are on nearly half the tonnage. The Greek Megas Alexandros, while "only" having 12x14", has comparable specifications, and the Russian Soyuz Nerushimy has similar firepower.

IMHO, the deck armor is adding a great deal of unnecessary weight for little increase in protection. Perhaps if you're anticipating guided tungsten-capped bombs falling from orbit...

Thats what I was thinking, using a wee bit of foresight expecting to have protection against Fritz X style bombs.

Quoted

Originally posted by Fyrwulf

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
A maximum battleship that you'll be paying for even after she's sunk or considered obsolete. I doubt Brazil would have the resources to pay for it.

Frankly by the time I get to building proper capital ships, there won't be anything else to spend the tonnage on. I see no reason not to build them.

Oh I dunno, the fact that building such beasts would force your neighbours (who could afford it that is) to build something similar. Several of your neighbours can build at least double the number of ships equal to yours.

Here's the revised design:

MIBN Netuno, Empire of Brazil Battleship laid down 1942

Displacement:
57,117 t light; 60,102 t standard; 62,409 t normal; 64,255 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
900.84 ft / 880.00 ft x 102.00 ft (Bulges 117.50 ft) x 32.50 ft (normal load)
274.58 m / 268.22 m x 31.09 m (Bulges 35.81 m) x 9.91 m

Armament:
9 - 16.34" / 415 mm guns (3x3 guns), 2,875.00lbs / 1,304.08kg shells, 1942 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward
3 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns (1x3 guns), 141.00lbs / 63.96kg shells, 1942 Model
Quick firing guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on side amidships, all raised guns
12 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns (4x3 guns), 141.00lbs / 63.96kg shells, 1942 Model
Quick firing guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
32 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1942 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
24 - 0.54" / 13.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1942 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 12 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 28,042 lbs / 12,719 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 19.0" / 483 mm 465.00 ft / 141.73 m 13.25 ft / 4.04 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 81 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2.25" / 57 mm 570.00 ft / 173.74 m 32.80 ft / 10.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 19.0" / 483 mm 11.3" / 286 mm 19.0" / 483 mm
2nd: 4.75" / 121 mm 2.75" / 70 mm 4.75" / 121 mm
3rd: 4.75" / 121 mm 2.75" / 70 mm 4.75" / 121 mm
4th: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
5th: 0.80" / 20 mm - -

- Armour deck: 8.00" / 203 mm, Conning tower: 19.00" / 483 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 130,871 shp / 97,630 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,153 tons

Complement:
1,973 - 2,566

Cost:
£29.990 million / $119.960 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,661 tons, 4.3 %
Armour: 24,320 tons, 39.0 %
- Belts: 5,162 tons, 8.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,556 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 6,340 tons, 10.2 %
- Armour Deck: 10,617 tons, 17.0 %
- Conning Tower: 644 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 3,419 tons, 5.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 26,217 tons, 42.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,293 tons, 8.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
131,779 lbs / 59,774 Kg = 60.4 x 16.3 " / 415 mm shells or 23.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 6.7 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 19.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.91
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.76

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.650
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.49 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 34.10 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 44.70 ft / 13.62 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 32.50 ft / 9.91 m
- Mid (50 %): 32.50 ft / 9.91 m
- Quarterdeck (17 %): 32.50 ft / 9.91 m
- Stern: 32.50 ft / 9.91 m
- Average freeboard: 33.33 ft / 10.16 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 65.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 225.1 %
Waterplane Area: 71,738 Square feet or 6,665 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 239 lbs/sq ft or 1,164 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.68
- Overall: 1.03
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Ships (2):
Netuno
Urano

Definitely an improvement.

Unfortunately the recoil is worse, but there is very little that can be done about that. Shaving 10,000t off was totally worth it.

Ah... recoil is .14 lower on the second version...

Personally I'd rather see a longer, thiner main belt than a short 19" belt. She's got over 400 feet of unprotected hull to drag her down not to mention only 465 feet to place all her vitals inside. Can you say cramped?

For all of you interested in designing ships with total IZ against the SAE´s current 38cm gun:

38L50-24


Caliber = 38.0 cm (15.0 inch)
Shell weight = 825 kg (1818 lbs)
Muzzle velocity = 840 m/s (2755 fps)

Relative ballistic performance: 1.05

Muzzle energy = 290.9 megajoules = 107204.2 foot-tons

Relative muzzle energy: 1.00

Barrel length: 50 calibers


Elevation Range Time Velocity Fall Angle

2.5 deg 5700 meters 7.3 sec 725 m/s 2.8 deg
5.0 deg 10400 meters 14.3 sec 644 m/s 6.0 deg
7.5 deg 14400 meters 20.9 sec 587 m/s 9.5 deg
10.0 deg 17900 meters 27.3 sec 545 m/s 13.3 deg
12.5 deg 21000 meters 33.4 sec 515 m/s 17.2 deg
15.0 deg 23700 meters 39.3 sec 495 m/s 21.1 deg
20.0 deg 28500 meters 50.7 sec 472 m/s 28.6 deg
25.0 deg 32500 meters 61.5 sec 467 m/s 35.5 deg
30.0 deg 35800 meters 71.8 sec 472 m/s 41.4 deg
35.0 deg 38400 meters 81.7 sec 483 m/s 46.7 deg
40.0 deg 40100 meters 91.1 sec 497 m/s 51.3 deg
45.0 deg 41000 meters 100.0 sec 513 m/s 55.4 deg
50.0 deg 40900 meters 108.2 sec 527 m/s 59.2 deg


Armor Penetration - Vertical Belt Armor

(Relative armor quality, 1.00)

Maximum penetration: 77.48 cm


Elevation Range Belt Deck

1.2 deg 2900 meters 70 cm
2.2 deg 5000 meters 65 cm
2.9 deg 6400 meters ... 2 cm
3.3 deg 7300 meters 60 cm
4.7 deg 9900 meters 55 cm
5.2 deg 10800 meters ... 4 cm
6.4 deg 12700 meters 50 cm
7.7 deg 14700 meters ... 6 cm
8.5 deg 15800 meters 45 cm
10.5 deg 18500 meters ... 8 cm
11.2 deg 19400 meters 40 cm
14.0 deg 22700 meters ... 10 cm
14.9 deg 23600 meters 35 cm
18.0 deg 26700 meters ... 12 cm
20.3 deg 28800 meters 30 cm
20.7 deg 29100 meters ... 14 cm
23.4 deg 31300 meters ... 16 cm
26.3 deg 33400 meters ... 18 cm
28.9 deg 35100 meters 25 cm
29.0 deg 35200 meters ... 20 cm
31.8 deg 36800 meters ... 22 cm
34.7 deg 38200 meters ... 24 cm
37.6 deg 39400 meters ... 26 cm
40.6 deg 40300 meters ... 28 cm
41.8 deg 40600 meters 20 cm
43.6 deg 40900 meters ... 30 cm
46.8 deg 41100 meters ... 32 cm


Maximum range = 41100 meters at 46.9 deg elevation


[So I´d say you need a 70cm belt and a ~25cm deck....]