WesWorld

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Originally posted by Red Admiral

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I've doubts about any period semi-auto rifle being all of those things, RA: simple wasn't a hallmark of the period, and light's also dubious. What're your definitions for those terms?

Its the Mod.91 Carcano bolt-action rifle with shorter barrel and chambered for the 7.35x51 cartridge similar to the Mod.38 the difference in timescale being that Italy got involved in a shooting war a few years earlier in WW and on the other side of the Red Sea. Its definitely light and fairly small, and with the fixed sights its a matter of point and shoot at reasonable ranges.

That's not a semi-auto rifle, though.

If we're looking at bolt-actions, the Mauser Kar. 31 in 7 x 40mm would be about the same length (the shorter action would probably be compensated for by a slightly longer stock for on average taller German soldiers) but probably a little lighter (because of the shorter action and thinner barrel).


Hmmmmm. I thought the Italians were going to a new version of the old 6.5mm Carcano round anyway, rather than replacing them with the 7.35mm Model 38??

Well Mexico has been working on,
1. Improving the Mondragon
2. Replacing it with a new rifle

The problems found on the earlier version could be fixed by now.

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Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
My copy of Small Arms of the World has a note on the Mondragon: numbers of them that had been produced in Switzerland prior to the start of WWI were shipped to Germany once war broke out. They did not stand up well to the rigors of trench warfare, but they were issued very early to aircraft observers.

The Johnson was issued with a rotary magazine, but a vertical feed magazine was available. Adapting it to the 7.92 x 57 round would have been easy.

Frankly, ANY semi-auto will be more maintenance intensive and failure prone than a bolt-action, there are more things to go wrong and more places for dirt or fouling to get in the way.

Probably a good choice for the Dutch, not having had much land war experience in the Great War, to stick with the full-power rounds and to denigrate the new intermediate rounds like the German 7 x 40mm and the American 7 x 51mm.

Good info Hrolf, RA.
Some notes :
Mondragon- that accords with what I know, just figure that with an active Mexico and 16 years after the war, things might be bit different, at least to the extent the Dutch should consider it for RP reasons.

The Johnson actually sounds quite promising as a rifle. The choice to extend things so that properly chambered rifles can be tested is intended to level the playing field.

The Caranco- I recall RA posting his intent sometime ago, and as I recall the only use of that model was 800 copies in Costa Rica during a civil war, no further orders. So if available 1938 OTL, that's 1935 WW- 1 year after the evaluation started, and even then not in great numbers and non-reassuring OTL use.

I was trying to highlight the 'dirt and grime' factor as a negative. As Hrolf observed, the Dutch will likely have to make a choice. Superior firepower or more reliability? Likely they will choose to arm the better trained troops with the semi-autos and leave the reserves with others.

Cartridge : OTL, the Dutch used a 6.5mm which they had found unsatisfactory in wars in the DEI, such as the Aceh war and the Lombok incident. OTL they meant to go to 7.92 Mauser- which I made their standard in WW.
However with the adoption of a new rifle, the establishment of a Kongo army, and Belgium pushing for standardization, this would be the time to pick a new round. I was thinking the Swiss G11 in 7.5mm.

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Originally posted by Kaiser KirkI was thinking the Swiss G11 in 7.5mm.

Incidentally, that's a similar choice to what I made - except the m1911 Schmidt-Ruben has been replaced by this date, by the superior K31 rifle. Bulgaria is taking order of K31s modified for 8mm Mauser.

Incidentally, Bulgaria is evaluating a home-designed (and completely ahistoric) semi-automatic rifle (mentioned in the Q1/36 news) called the STPR-36. I'm probably going to have a few thousand of them by the 1938 Balkans War. It won't be a perfect design, but it will be workable enough for me to justify buying them. Unfortunately for the Dutch (and FN) Bulgaria has been working very closely with Switzerland and SIG for the design.

I don't know that there's really any advantage to changing from the 7.92 x 57mm to the 7.5mm, they fire projectiles of about the same weight at about the same velocity, so there's no real advantage from one to the other. Making this change will simply give you another round to supply your troops with.


The Carcano RA's referring to is the Model 38 bolt action, in 7.35 x 51mm, a perfectly reasonable bolt action, but one that doesn't really give the Dutch anything they don't already have.


Historically, in 1936, you're still a year or three away from really satisfactory full-power semi-autos (the Garand is still being redesigned for the .30-06, the Johnson's really still on the drawing board, the Tokarev is still in it's problematic phase, etc).

I'm hurting my export chances but there is also the little known Peterson Device, which turned a standard bolt action into a semi-automatic. I think it was used with the Springfield.

Yes, the Pedersen Device was used with the Springfield. Here in WW, Atlantis has developed a similar item known as the Trench Gun (see here: http://88.198.26.117/kunden/oponn/wbblit…eadid=1309&sid= ).

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Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
Historically, in 1936, you're still a year or three away from really satisfactory full-power semi-autos (the Garand is still being redesigned for the .30-06, the Johnson's really still on the drawing board, the Tokarev is still in it's problematic phase, etc).

Thats sort of the result I arrived at. Originally I saw others adopting semi-autos and figured I should get on that bandwagon, but trying to review the options and flaws I felt none were truly "ready". The Dutch aren't rich enough to invest in half a million rifles that aren't quite good enough in the hopes the bugs will be worked out.

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I don't know that there's really any advantage to changing from the 7.92 x 57mm to the 7.5mm, they fire projectiles of about the same weight at about the same velocity, so there's no real advantage from one to the other. Making this change will simply give you another round to supply your troops with.

I thought the heavy 7.92mm was a bit robust for autoloading ? Leastways scaling down some may be beneficial in making the resulting rifle and ammunition lighter, while the lower shock is easier on the action leading to greater reliability?

I was entertaining the cartridge change for those reasons, and would make sense to do so when adopting a new rifle, not after thousands of copies. Plus I kinda like the G11 write up I can always make that the Kongo's std as they gear up anyhow.

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Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk

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Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
I don't know that there's really any advantage to changing from the 7.92 x 57mm to the 7.5mm, they fire projectiles of about the same weight at about the same velocity, so there's no real advantage from one to the other. Making this change will simply give you another round to supply your troops with.

I thought the heavy 7.92mm was a bit robust for autoloading ? Leastways scaling down some may be beneficial in making the resulting rifle and ammunition lighter, while the lower shock is easier on the action leading to greater reliability?

I was entertaining the cartridge change for those reasons, and would make sense to do so when adopting a new rifle, not after thousands of copies. Plus I kinda like the G11 write up I can always make that the Kongo's std as they gear up anyhow.

The 7.92 x 57mm IS a bit too powerful for an autoloading rifle at this period, BUT the 7.5 x 55mm Swiss is right in the same class. Looking at my Hornady reloading manual, with the same weight bullet, they have maximum loads within 20 feet per second of one another. In their historically standard military loadings, the 7.92mm IS 1934 was firing a 197 grain bullet at 2490 fps, while the 7.5mm is firing a 174 grain bullet at 2560 fps. A raw recoil value works out to 70 foot-pounds for the 7.92 vs 63.6 for the 7.5mm. Some difference (10%), but not huge.

To have a useful impact on getting a semi-auto to work at this period, you'd probably need to go down to the intermediate class, currently exemplified in WW by the .276 Pedersen and the 7 x 40mm. The .276 has a muzzle velocity of about 2400 fps when firing a 140 grain bullet, with a raw recoil of about 48 foot pounds, about 30% less than the 7.92mm Mauser.

Hmm, I'm thinking that after their poor experience with the 6.5mm, they would be interested in keeping to a more powerful round, and want something accurate at range- I have the impression of the Netherlands as having good sight lines in many places.

Another cartridge I looked at was the 7mm x 64mm Brenneke, but from your discussion that is again no real gain on the 7.92mm or 7.5mm. Looking at the 7mm x 57mm mauser, it still looks to be that a 175gr would run in the 2500 range. Problems, problems...

Heh, the 7 x 64mm would likely have MORE recoil than the 7.92 x 57mm, nice flat trajectory but muzzle blast would be an issue. The 7 x 57mm is in the same range, again, because it uses the same case (necked down) as the 7.92 x 57mm.

There aren't many historical rounds in this period that would make a truly brilliant SLR round. In fact, there aren't a lot of rounds today which everyone would agree make a truly great rifle round...

(Personally, I think .30/06 is just about right for a rifle, but half of my friends think it's an ohgodmyshoulder round.)

Yep. Actually, one possibility (though it was never used as a military round) might be the .257 Roberts, load 115-120 grain bullets and fire them at 2750-2800 fps. The ballistics would be good, and the recoil would be pretty reasonable (only 48 foot-pounds for a 120 grain bullet at 2800 fps). The downside, of course, is that it's a small-bore cartridge, only a 6.25mm, so it's an pretty unreasonable choice for the period (and the relatively long case length means it won't make a really good assault rifle round later on). When I was working up the 7 x 40mm for Germany I resisted my own personal preference for something in the 6-6.5mm range because it seems pretty unlikely that that large a switch would be made.

All I want is a small light cartridge, with great ballistics,thats hard hitting at long range with negligible recoil, how hard can that be to find ?


I think the sequence I will take is that in 6mo or so, Semi-autos will be adopted in the 7.92mm, but for the limited troops I outlined earlier- either top notch or in fairly clean environs. Once there is some service experience and further development the Dutch may just co-op the German round. I don't know what the Belgians would think of that. Perhaps I may tap your knowledge for a plausible hypothetical round.

The Kongo will likely blaze it's own path. It has a different situation in that there is no great backstock of rifles, but semi-autos are expensive and likely will be reserved for the regulars while the landwher gains bolt action. I think I'll stick the 7.5mm G11 in as the Kongo's choice.

If the Kongo wants to go it's own way, away from the Netherlands, then the 7.5mm makes some sense for them.

Kinshasa Klarion, November 15th
Foreign Minister Count Nzinga Mvemba is scheduled to make his presentation to the League of Nations today, seeking explicit international standing as a free nation.

For the peoples of the Kongo this is a momentous day. Fifty years ago, a gathering of prominent Europeans saw fit to simply bequeath the rights to the territories and the peoples of the Kongo to the hands of Leopold III. While Leopolds man Stanley had bribed some chiefs along the Congo, the majority of the peoples of the Congo had never heard of a Caucasian at that time, a deficit to be rectified only after extreme suffering.

While Leopold may represent the worst that humanity has to offer, in the past thirty years the peoples of the Kongo have seen rapid progress. The intervention of the Dutch Queen on our behalf led to not only the ousting of Leopolds Force Publique, but also establishment of our own Kingdom, leading to investment and development by the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the South Afrikaan Empire, to whom much is owed. The Regent, Prince-Consort Hendriks connection to Germany saw the crucial addition of skilled German Great War refugees turn the depopulated Katanga province into a strong portion of our Kingdom.

In the past fifty years our people have plunged to the depths, only to be reborn stronger, wiser, richer and with a bright future.

The Maastricht Mercury , November 19th.
The DMZSBD held a rally yesterday, claiming nearly 30,000 black clad party members attended the Prime Ministers speech in the softly falling snow. The Prime Minister awarded Brigade-Generaal Snellensoon a newly minted medal, the Krook Cross, emblazoned with Hou En Trou.

Prime Minister Krook:

"WHAT seems to us almost a miracle as we look back upon it is nothing else than the reward for infinite and unwearying labor.... And now for that labor we have received from Providence our reward, custody of our nations hopes.

From blood, authority of personality, and a fighting spirit springs that value which alone entitles a people to look around with glad hope, and that alone is also the condition for the life which men then desire. And when that is realized, then that too is realized for which today the political parties strive: prosperity, happiness of the individual, family-life, etc.

First will come honor and then freedom, and from both of these happiness, prosperity, life, since there will be an endless chain of generations to follow: man will know that what we create will not sink into Orcus but will pass to his children and to his children's children.

The electoral victory which we have won this spring is nothing else than the winning of a new weapon for our fight, one which we must use to carry forth our agenda. Only the first step has been taken, there is a long path to follow to hone the steel of the Netherlands.

Within our own party, many feel that mere accession to power marks victory. This is False! We must mold the state to our image, we must break those who would sap our strength by resisting change. Do not write on your banners the word 'Victory': today that word shall be uttered for the last time. Strike through the word 'Victory' and write once more in its place the word which suits us better - the word 'Fight.'" (1)

(1) Except a couple bridging phrases, not my words, stolen from two historical speeches.

Kinshasa Klarion, November 20th

The Government has announced the commencement of new hydroelectric dam on the upper Luapula river near Nchelenge. This will be the nations third full hydroelectric dam and will supply power for both local towns and more particularly enlargement of smelting and refining operations of Union Minière du Haut Katanga. The Union Minière du Haut Katanga mines Copper, Cobalt, Tin, Zinc, Radium and Uranium. A former Belgian company many of these ores formerly were exported to Belgium for refining. The severance of links to Belgium after 1905 eliminated those ties and the company sold out to the Bank of the Kongo in 1907. The companies mining languished until new trade links could be established and then boomed after Silesian refugees came and the SANTA treaty was finalized. Now Union Minière du Haut Katanga seeks to boost local employment and profits through retention of more of the processing and manufacture process.

The government revealed continued studies on micro dams and wing dams intended for use on low gradient rivers. At this time, large diameter, low rpm turbines mounted in wing dams appear the most effective for providing power for small riverfront communities and industries. Government planners have debated schemes proportioning power to an industrial facility during a 10 hour day time shift, and then to the community for nighttime power.

The last bit of hydrological news involves the arrival of engineers hired to study the feasibility of swamp drainage in the Mbandaka region.

In other news:
Swamp reclamation : The last bit of hydrological news involves the arrival of engineers hired to study the feasibility of swamp drainage in the Mbandaka region.

Railroads : The Kinshasha to Luanda railroad completed its first stage today, connecting to Mbanza Congo, ancient seat of the Kingdom, in Angola. While the Luandan port and Congo river have long served as a trade routes, the railroad helps open the interior of Angola, much as the 1911 Lumbashi- Bengeula route did when it was finally completed.

Pharmaceuticals: the government has declared the first Cinchona plantations of the Kananga region now of age for harvest. Established in 1910-1915, these plantations were not planted as monocultures, but interplantings of Cinchona and para rubber trees in small half hectare clearings in the native forests from Kananga to Kolwesi. A factory in Kananga was completed two years ago to begin bark processing, and a second factor in Kolwesi is near completion. Between 1916 and 1920, further Para rubber and Cinchona plantings were conducted near Yahuma, but will not be sufficiently mature for another five years at the soonest.

While these supplies of Cinchona are expected to free the Kingdom from dependence on foreign supplies of quinine, they are not expected to be sufficient for preventative treatments.

Chemical synthesis, or improved extraction methods, are the goals that researchers from the Belgian company Meurice Laboratories will be pursuing. The company has recently received a contract from Princess Julianna to come to the Kongo to research alternatives to natural quinine and superior methods of processing.

Prior to this time, Zwanenburg Laboratories of the Netherlands has the primary medical researcher into ways of reining in the diseases of our Kingdom, the Queen having financed a facility in 1907. Saal van Zwanenburg has since founded Orangen pharmaceuticals which has also established laboratories and medical production facilities.

The Hauge Herald , November 20th
The Staats Generaal took up the treaties proposed by War Minister Loeder. The War ministers actions have caused rather a fuss domestically. In addition to the hostile reaction of Persia, Foreign Minister Grootveld was reportedly incensed at Herr Loeders interloping in foreign affairs and has reportedly demanded an apology and assurances of future conduct from the Prime Minister. Herr Grootveld has the capacity to withdraw his party, breaking the government, but has not chosen to do so, leading to speculation of a quiet deal between Prime Minister Krook and Minister Grootveld.

The Queen has reportedly indicated that Herr Loeder overstepped his bounds by proposing treaties rather than purely non-binding military arrangements, but that as the deals are fair to all parties, she would defer to Minister Grootvelds judgment.

As expected, the Staats Generaal passed the treaties by a significant margin. The unduly hostile reaction of SATSUMAs newest member was viewed as an affront and a sign that that there may be territorial aspirations on the part of Persia on the Arabian peninsula, aspirations which may become more difficult should the Arabian kingdoms actually have the capacity to defend their territories.

The Staats Generaal has officially postponed the vote on Malay Archipelago representation. The proposal barely passed the first session, but of course the constitution requires a reaffirmation subsequent to an election in order to amend it. The DMZSBD has argued strongly against the TIDE policy, but has curiously left the reforms and their funding intact. Recurrent rumor is that both former Prime Minister Land and Prime Minister Krook are pressing their respective cases for and against the island provinces gaining representatives in the Staats Generaal. The vote has been scheduled and canceled several times this fall as either side felt they had votes for victory. The Queen is known to be passionate on the issue, having been an advocate for provincial reform since her Ethical Policy speech of 1905, and is reportedly working behind the scenes to secure passage.

The Liege Legacy November 28th
The Queen attended the opening ceremonies for a large foundry. The first major manufacturer to open in Liege since the onset of the Depression, the foundry already has orders for high quality armor plate and it is understood that the large casting facility is being eyed by both Kingdoms for military orders. However, the first products off the line were simple plowshares to be fitted to Familleheureux Ca tractors.

The Amsterdam Advocate , December 2nd
Fokker announced today that a contract has been inked with Dornier to produce the hull for the Design 122 Flying Boat. The Design 122 is intended for long range transport over open bodies of water, allowing more direct aerial links for KLM airlines. The contract is likely a result of Fokkers previous difficulties in amphibian and flying boat manufacture, although the Fokker track record with floatplanes is quite good.

The Design 122 is only one of several large aircraft that Fokker is reported to be working on for long distance travel. Fokker has missed out on some international contracts of late which desired longer range options, The air force has funded development of the Design 119 bomber, and Fokker is reportedly working on a private venture airliner using many of the same parts. Additionally, work on the Design 160 flying wing is supposed to be advancing.

The Hague Herald , December 10
A prize-winning stallion of the Karabakh breed, called the Caspian Princes, was presented as a gift to her Majesty, Queen Wilhelmina. The Queen was enthused by the presentation and insisted on examining the horse herself, pronouncing it a magnificent example of the Equine species. The Azerbaijan delegation appeared pleased.

The Karabakh breed is prized by the Azerbaijan people, who have deep historical ties to these horses. An Azerbaijan organization has been founded to raise awareness of the breed, whose ranges have been threatened. Princess Julianna showed a particular interest in the horse. Her late husband, Prince Karel, was an avid horseman and the Princess has been looking to sponsor causes in his name.

The Hague Herald , December 12th
The Staats Generaal narrowly approved the request of Dr. Agustadi Sasongko, Governor of the Moluccas and Johannes van Damme , Governor of Java
to acquire a further 150 tractors from Skoda-Davao. The DMZSBD representatives argued that an alternate source of tractors should be found that does not enrich the Philippines. This follows a similar order of 20 tractors for the province of Borneo. The Skoda-Davao tractors have reportedly been popular in service of the engineering battalions.

The Amsterdam Advocate December 13th
The international wire reports that Persia has bequeathed the reborn Kingdom of Hedjaz with tanks, artillery and naval craft. While details are not available, the Persian gift was supposedly accompanied with poisonous remarks regarding the Kingdom of the Netherlands.

With the recent approval of Herr Loeders treaties, the Netherlands is committed to transferring 12 motor torpedo boats and four minesweepers the Kingdom of Yemen, which does not border the Kingdom of Hedjaz.

Further news reports from Persia indicate that the Persian Empire has in some manner disbanded its army and requested the Indian Empire occupy the Persian Empire. There has been no indication of a Coup de Main, but this radical break with the past suggests the army was disbanded out of concern of organized resistance to the imposition of Indian rule.


The Luxembourg Lexicon December 16th
The Chamber of Deputies debated the future of the Belgian-Luxembourg Currency union today. The 1922 treaty has been under great strain the past several years and was nearly abandoned two years ago as the Belgian depression placed inflationary pressures on the Belgian Franc, distorting the Luxembourgian Franc in the process. The influx of Dutch money, as allowed under the 1923 Benelux trade and economic cooperation treaty, helped staunch that bleeding and the call to unpeg the Luxembourg Franc was dropped.

However, last years choice by Belgium to join the UKN has raised questions in Luxembourg if it is not time to either switch the peg to the more stable and stronger Dutch Guilder, simply rely on PETA to even trade and abandon the currency peg altogether or seek wider currency peg, fixing the Dutch Guilder, Belgian Franc and Luxembourg Franc.

The Brussels Sprout, December 20th
The Queen and Princess Juliana hosted a Christmas Ball in the town square.
Awards were given for citizenship, contributions to Belgian society and dancing ability.
The absence of Prince Louis-Ferdinand was noted by many, the Prince has been spotted escorting the Princess to several occasions, prompting speculation.

The Hague Herald December 24th
The Queens annual Christmas ball went well last night. In the morning of the ball, the Royal family toured hospitals and orphanages in the local area, handing out gifts to the unfortunate. In a ceremony before the ball, the Royal Family presented the 4 month old Prince Albert to the people.




And that concludes my 1935 news. Kinda, didn't quite make it through the list of items...argh.

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Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
If the Kongo wants to go it's own way, away from the Netherlands, then the 7.5mm makes some sense for them.

I'm trying to decide how much 'National pride' should effect that. The Kongo army is small and only recently (1933) transitioned from the Dutch 'territorial' system. That arrangement was needed to provide 3rd party neutral views for tribal conflicts as well as training and equipment.

However when looking at an order of several hundred thousand rifles, they may want to choose something other than an hand-me-down cartridge. I dunno.

One other issue could be how much they're willing to spend on these new weapons: 7.92mm weapons are pretty common and fairly cheap, there are a lot fewer available for the 7.5mm. Not that weapons couldn't be rechambered, but that's an additional cost, and it sometimes doesn't work out well.