WesWorld

Ulven, GW Cruiser laid down 1936

Displacement:
21 767 t light; 22 663 t standard; 24 764 t normal; 26 445 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
820,21 ft / 820,21 ft x 83,66 ft x 22,97 ft (normal load)
250,00 m / 250,00 m x 25,50 m x 7,00 m

Armament:
6 - 10,00" / 254 mm guns (3x2 guns), 500,00lbs / 226,80kg shells, 1936 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward
12 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns (6x2 guns), 102,98lbs / 46,71kg shells, 1936 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
18 - 2,99" / 76,0 mm guns (9x2 guns), 13,39lbs / 6,08kg shells, 1936 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
40 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (10x4 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1936 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4 496 lbs / 2 039 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4,72" / 120 mm 666,01 ft / 203,00 m 10,20 ft / 3,11 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 125 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
0,79" / 20 mm 511,81 ft / 156,00 m 15,06 ft / 4,59 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5,51" / 140 mm 3,94" / 100 mm 3,15" / 80 mm
2nd: 3,15" / 80 mm 2,36" / 60 mm 1,57" / 40 mm
3rd: 0,79" / 20 mm - -
4th: 0,79" / 20 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3,54" / 90 mm, Conning tower: 3,54" / 90 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 5 shafts, 209 287 shp / 156 128 Kw = 37,00 kts
Range 6 000nm at 19,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3 782 tons

Complement:
986 - 1 283

Cost:
£10,841 million / $43,364 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 562 tons, 2,3 %
Armour: 5 549 tons, 22,4 %
- Belts: 1 297 tons, 5,2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 225 tons, 0,9 %
- Armament: 694 tons, 2,8 %
- Armour Deck: 3 268 tons, 13,2 %
- Conning Tower: 65 tons, 0,3 %
Machinery: 5 872 tons, 23,7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9 784 tons, 39,5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 997 tons, 12,1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
35 390 lbs / 16 053 Kg = 70,8 x 10,0 " / 254 mm shells or 3,7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,33
Metacentric height 6,3 ft / 1,9 m
Roll period: 14,0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,30
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,550
Length to Beam Ratio: 9,80 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 32,55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32,81 ft / 10,00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24,61 ft / 7,50 m
- Mid (50 %): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m (24,61 ft / 7,50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Stern: 24,61 ft / 7,50 m
- Average freeboard: 24,61 ft / 7,50 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 124,8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 229,1 %
Waterplane Area: 49 857 Square feet or 4 632 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 137 lbs/sq ft or 669 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,99
- Longitudinal: 1,00
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

"In this corner, Ulven , weighing in at 22,600 tons Standard and armed with 6 10-inch guns. In this corner, Varyag , weighing in at 5,800 tons Standard and armed with 6 9.2 inch guns. Ulven , approaching the convoy defended by Varyag , calculates the relative effect of her 10-inch shells on Varyag's 170mm belt, 170mm turret face, and 120mm barbette and Varyag's 9.2" guns on her own 120mm belt, 140mm turret face and 80mm barbette, and makes off at 25 knots to seek easier prey elsewhere. Varyag and her convoy continue on their way at 10 knots."

I'd like Ulven better if she ditched 4 knots of speed and shifted the weight savings to additional armour.

So its armor always trumphs speed and guns

Armour helps protect the speed and guns. 37 knots is excessive IMO, 33-34 knots to me seems more than adequate.

There are also plenty of ships in the 20,000 ton range armed with guns larger than 9.2" that can wreak havoc on Ulven if they get a few lucky hits.

Agreed, the German Derfflingers being one of them.

The only role IMO it has right now is as a raider and a very short legged one at that. Not enough armor and vulnerable to many ships in their own weight range. And at 20000t is also too slightly armed. The future Delhi Class carries nine 250mm guns, armor around 280mm in the main belt, range of 20000 nm and capable of 33 knots max in a smaller hull.

Take a look at the Japanese Hiei, very similar to what you want on 4,000 tons less.

Interesting thing is - the elderly designers in WesWorld favoured rather slow vessels with thick armor and standard to superior number of guns.

Since some month now we see more and more designs advocating speed over guns and armour.

Is it just the change in players or is there other reason?

Guess I am the exception then.

A Cruiser catering to WW tastes

Björnen, GW Cruiser laid down 1936

Displacement:
21 741 t light; 22 700 t standard; 26 260 t normal; 29 108 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
853,02 ft / 853,02 ft x 85,30 ft x 22,97 ft (normal load)
260,00 m / 260,00 m x 26,00 m x 7,00 m

Armament:
6 - 12,00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 864,00lbs / 391,90kg shells, 1936 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward
12 - 5,12" / 130 mm guns (6x2 guns), 67,03lbs / 30,41kg shells, 1936 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
18 - 2,99" / 76,0 mm guns (9x2 guns), 13,39lbs / 6,07kg shells, 1936 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
40 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (10x4 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1936 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6 249 lbs / 2 834 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11,4" / 290 mm 328,08 ft / 100,00 m 10,20 ft / 3,11 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 59 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,57" / 40 mm 511,81 ft / 156,00 m 15,06 ft / 4,59 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11,8" / 300 mm 6,30" / 160 mm 3,94" / 100 mm
2nd: 5,12" / 130 mm 3,15" / 80 mm 2,36" / 60 mm
3rd: 0,79" / 20 mm - -
4th: 0,79" / 20 mm - -

- Armour deck: 4,72" / 120 mm, Conning tower: 3,54" / 90 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 75 670 shp / 56 450 Kw = 28,00 kts
Range 10 000nm at 19,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6 409 tons

Complement:
1 030 - 1 340

Cost:
£9,039 million / $36,155 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 781 tons, 3,0 %
Armour: 8 027 tons, 30,6 %
- Belts: 1 751 tons, 6,7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 449 tons, 1,7 %
- Armament: 1 139 tons, 4,3 %
- Armour Deck: 4 621 tons, 17,6 %
- Conning Tower: 67 tons, 0,3 %
Machinery: 2 123 tons, 8,1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10 810 tons, 41,2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4 519 tons, 17,2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
67 997 lbs / 30 843 Kg = 78,7 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 10,5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,20
Metacentric height 5,5 ft / 1,7 m
Roll period: 15,3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 85 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,55

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,550
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 33,15 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32,81 ft / 10,00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24,61 ft / 7,50 m
- Mid (50 %): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m (24,61 ft / 7,50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Stern: 24,61 ft / 7,50 m
- Average freeboard: 24,61 ft / 7,50 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 65,2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 232,6 %
Waterplane Area: 52 868 Square feet or 4 912 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 142 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 144 lbs/sq ft or 703 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1,01
- Longitudinal: 0,99
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Interesting thing is - the elderly designers in WesWorld favoured rather slow vessels with thick armor and standard to superior number of guns.

Since some month now we see more and more designs advocating speed over guns and armour.

Is it just the change in players or is there other reason?

I dont know about what the other players tink but I like the Outrun what you cant outgun rather than the WW Die in a blaze of glory philosophy

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad
So its armor always trumphs speed and guns

Not really, I had a design for a light cruiser awhile back that emphazied armour over speed and guns, and it was shot down.

Perhaps the most telling thing about WW is that everyone seems to want to have a balanced design. Which makes sense for the bigger powers, who need that balance, but doesn't really make sense for smaller, regional powers who don't need such a balance. There is very little sense in making a ship for Romania or Poland that has a range of 10000nm @ 15knots, because their operating in small, enclosed Seas, and their area of operations is never very far from home. I'd rather spend the tonnage on better armour or guns against contemporary larger powers who have 2 or even three other areas to worry about beside the Baltic and Black Seas, and need to spend their tonnage on a more balanced design.

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Interesting thing is - the elderly designers in WesWorld favoured rather slow vessels with thick armor and standard to superior number of guns.

Since some month now we see more and more designs advocating speed over guns and armour.

Is it just the change in players or is there other reason?

I dont know about what the other players think but I like the Outrun what you cant outgun rather than the WW Die in a blaze of glory philosophy

Depends on the role it plays in the fleet. Ideally, I like my destroyers to be 34-35 knots, my cruisers to be 30-32 knots, my battleships to be 25-27 knots, minesweepers and what-all 15-20 knots. Beyond those points, I find the tradeoffs for higher speeds aren't worth it.

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Interesting thing is - the elderly designers in WesWorld favoured rather slow vessels with thick armor and standard to superior number of guns.

Since some month now we see more and more designs advocating speed over guns and armour.

Is it just the change in players or is there other reason?

I dont know about what the other players tink but I like the Outrun what you cant outgun rather than the WW Die in a blaze of glory philosophy

The Outrun what you can't outgun isn't a bad philpsophy, but 34 or 35 knots should be sufficient in your first cruiser design. Also, the Germans thought of that strategy too, with their "pocket battleships" in OTL and look what happened to Admiral Graf Spee.

And what are the missions with those speeds stated?

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Interesting thing is - the elderly designers in WesWorld favoured rather slow vessels with thick armor and standard to superior number of guns.

Since some month now we see more and more designs advocating speed over guns and armour.

Is it just the change in players or is there other reason?

I'd like to get my lighter vessels up around 34-36 knots, with the heavier lagging at around 30knots. I haven't quite managed it, usually coming a knot short of desired.

Quoted

Originally posted by TheCanadian

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Interesting thing is - the elderly designers in WesWorld favoured rather slow vessels with thick armor and standard to superior number of guns.

Since some month now we see more and more designs advocating speed over guns and armour.

Is it just the change in players or is there other reason?

I dont know about what the other players tink but I like the Outrun what you cant outgun rather than the WW Die in a blaze of glory philosophy

The Outrun what you can't outgun isn't a bad philpsophy, but 34 or 35 knots should be sufficient in your first cruiser design. Also, the Germans thought of that strategy too, with their "pocket battleships" in OTL and look what happened to Admiral Graf Spee.

WW2 modern Battleships were 30-34kts so a 33-35kts Cruiser is just target practice not to mention Destroyers with that speed

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad
WW2 modern Battleships were 30-34kts so a 33-35kts Cruiser is just target practice not to mention Destroyers with that speed

Iowa was the fastest at 33 knots. Almost everything else was 27-29 knots, with the exception of the KGVs and Bismarcks, which were 30-knot ships.

Even Hood was, IIRC, maxing out around 29.5 knots.

Quoted

I dont know about what the other players tink but I like the Outrun what you cant outgun rather than the WW Die in a blaze of glory philosophy

However, Varyag and her sisters will pull a Jervis Bay to protect their charges.